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The Armenian Weekly; Volume 74, No. 12; March 29, 2008
Features:
1. Kurdish Accounts of the Armenian Genocide (Part I)
2. Liz Lerman on Using the Politics of Dance to Come ‘Out of the Darkness’
By Andy Turpin
***
1. Kurdish Accounts of the Armenian Genocide (Part I)
The following interviews with Kurds in Anatolia were conducted for the
documentary film "The Armenian Genocide," directed and produced by Emmy
Award-winning producer Andrew Goldberg of Two Cats Productions.
The documentary featured only very short segments of some of the interviews.
They are being published exclusively in the Armenian Weekly for the first
time and in their entirety.
The interviews were done undercover. The Kurdish producer of the interviews
has requested anonymity. We have also edited out the last names of the
interviewees.
The second part of the interview will appear in next week’s issue.
The Weekly would like to thank Andrew Goldberg and Two Cats TV
() for this collaboration.
***
Interview # 1: Emin
Question: What have your parents told you regarding the Armenian genocide?
My father and my mother talked about it. For instance, there was Menushehr.
The Muslims had married her. She was saying it wasn’t simply killing, it was
genocide. They killed about 1.5 million Armenians.
Menushehr told me that, later, she became Christian again; she had become
Muslim out of fear and bore three children. The ones who lived in the
Mazidare and Dairik regions were all Armenians. They were the largest
population in the area. They were killed and thrown in mass graves. People
used to go, myself too, to scavenge for gold among their bones, for
gold-plated teeth.
I mean, when old people and our parents talk about it, they tell the facts.
Half a million Assyrians and 1.5 million Armenians were lost or killed at
that time. That is what I can tell you.
Question: How old were you when you were looking for golden teeth in the
mass graves?
I was eight, nine. I was in school. In 1938, we would search the bones for
gold. That is what I have seen. What my parents were talking about was
genocide: genocide of Armenians. The government ordered the genocide and the
Mullahs made decrees in the mosques approving the killing of the Christians,
and so, besides the army, the civilians also did the killing. This is
according to my father and people of his time. I mean, it is what they were
saying.
I mentioned the ones who became Muslim, they became Muslims out of fear. And
the Muslims would marry them. Not the men, the women.
Menushehr was my friend. She used to tell me about the genocide. Said, they
would chain people in groups called "Armenian chains." Twenty to thirty per
group, they would blindfold them and shoot them into mass graves.
Of course if the government finds out it will put us in trouble. It is doing
it to us Kurds anyway. We are not historians but what we know cannot be
denied: There was a genocide on them [Armenians]. Like the mass killing in
Halabja [referring to the gassing of Kurds in Iraq by Saddam Hussein’s
regime]. Can anyone deny the fact? With the chemical attack 5,000 were
killed in a second. This is a genocide.
They didn’t use chemicals but used guns and swords. The woman [Menoshehr]
told me they would throw the babies up in the air and let them fall onto
their swords. The swords would pierce them or cut them in half. It was
savagery. I haven’t seen it with my eyes but we have been told.
Question: Will Turkey admit to the Armenian genocide?
A couple of days ago I listened to the Europeans [on the news]. They said
the Turks and the Kurds too, not just the Turks, because the Kurds also had
a part in the genocide, should ask for apologies from the Armenians. And
that is fair. We should ask for apologies.
I will tell you what my father told me (my father is dead now). He was
involved in it; he killed Armenians. He participated in the genocide. In our
region we had 10 to 15 Armenian villages. They either became Muslims or were
killed.
Question: You said when you were a kid, 9 years old, you went to the
Armenian mass graves looking for valuables. How do you feel now remembering
that?
If that was now, we would have given the bones a decent burial. My mind now
and that of my childhood are not the same. We were even cussing them,
because they were Christians. And then our Yezidi brothers, I remember the
Mullahs saying, "Anyone who would kill seven Yezidis, all the seven doors of
hell will be closed for them, only the door of heaven will stay open."
People would look for Yezidis to kill.
***
Interview #2: Ibrahim
Question: What can you to tell us regarding the Armenian genocide?
I can say this. When I was in school, fifth or sixth grade, my grandfather,
Haji Sleman was his name, he would tell us about the event. We would ask
him, Why did it happen? We were too young to know, he would say, "We didn’t
know, all we know, our clerics would tell us that the government has given
orders that killing them [Armenians] is a virtue. Our clerics never
protested or advised us against it, or that they too were human beings."
He would tell me, I mean this is what I know, that we are originally from
Mazidare. At that time, the village he lived in was Koye. Later when zonings
were created, it became part of Mardin Province. He said, "They would bring
them in groups to the outskirts of our villages and ask the villagers to
kill them, and in return keep their belongings. The belongings were clothes,
gold, whatever." Of course, our people were naive.
He said, "One day when the villagers were asked to come out to meet a new
Armenian group, my foot was hurting, I had it wrapped and so I couldn’t join
them, but then later I began to walk to catch up with them. I was carrying a
cane in my hands."
He mentioned a place, I don’t recall the name. He said, "As I reached the
lake, there were boats in the water, they were swaying. It grabbed my
attention. So I went to look and found a man with very white skin hiding. I
brought him out of the water into the boat and beat him to death with the
cane."
I was pretty young and I asked him, "Why did you do that?" He wasn’t even
religious. He said, "I don’t know, but I was told they are trouble and also
our leader was religious and didn’t tell us otherwise." That is what he told
me.
Question: When your grandfather was mentioning the beating of the man to
death by his cane, how did he feel at the time?
He regretted it. He admitted his naivete. We were naive. If we weren’t so
naive how could we commit such acts?
Question: How was he psychologically?
He was very regretful. He was angry with himself.
Question: When you talk about it, or remember what your grandpa did, how
does it make you feel?
We see things completely differently. We believe all humans should live side
by side, all should enjoy their human rights and live together like
brothers. Everybody needs that.
***
Interview #3: Heleem
Question: What have your mother, grandmother told you regarding the
genocide?
My grandfather talked about our neighbors who had seen terrible times. There
was a village close to ours called Akrak. An Armenian village. They take
them [the villagers] to another village called Chukhrek and slaughter them
all and throw them in a grave. A boy had survived; his throat had a scar
>From the knife. He said, "They came and took us in the night, they started
slaughtering us and throwing the bodies on top of each other. I slipped from
underneath the pile."
He said, "I made it back home. My grandmother, who was 70 years old, was
left behind, asked who I was. I told her it is me, Grandma. She said ‘How
did you survive?’ I said, ‘I just did, I don’t know how.’"
There were many such incidents during the genocide that we have heard. I
heard from someone that in the valley of Chirmok and Chonguch there is a
deep gorge. They call it "Armenian gorge." It’s about 100 meters deep and
was filled with victim bodies. As they were beheaded, they were thrown in
the gorge until it was full. What happened to these people is hard to talk
about. If they [the perpetrators] were human with human feelings, they
wouldn’t have done such a thing.
There was an uncle of my father’s, he said he was in Hazro, and the Beg
[chief] of Hazro "placed one [Armenian] in front of me and asked me to kill
him, but I couldn’t kill another human. So I took him out of the village, I
told him ‘Hey you.’ He said, ‘Yes?’ I said, ‘Do you know where I am taking
you?’ He said, ‘No.’ I said, ‘I am taking you to kill you.’ ‘Why would you
kill me?’ I said, ‘It is an order, but I will let you escape, I will fire
three shots in the air and you flee.’" He said, "that is what I did and the
man ran away."
I mean, there are so many situations. I met a woman in Sultan Sheikhmoose, a
village in Mazidare. She was Armenian in origin but turned Muslim. She said,
Lad, we didn’t know a word of a Muslim verse, we submitted to Islam but they
still killed a lot of us. The killing had nothing to do with faith, they
killed us because we were smarter, more knowledgeable, good businessmen,
civilized.
Because of that they were seen as a potential danger and so were subjected
to genocide.
They made decrees that killing Armenians was a duty, killing them was a
virtue, that if you kill an X number of Armenians, the doors of hell will
become the door of Heaven. Due to their naivete and ignorance, people
started killing the Armenians, took their young girls and made them their
wives, took their belongings. Meanwhile, the poor Armenians were telling
them, "Don’t do it, today it’s our turn, tomorrow will be yours."
Question: Do you see Turkey admitting to or doing something about the
genocide?
They deny it. They say they [the Armenians] have done it. That is strange.
Even a child can tell you they are being dishonest. It is not something you
can hide. The Armenians lived here and they are still here.
***
Interview # 4: Teyro
My grandmother used to tell me about a village called Sisa, Tepek in
Turkish, in the Gre Dadime area, where there was some one named Ali Babikir
who had taken part in the genocide. When my grandfather asked him whether he
had ever had any feelings for his victims, he said, "At one time when he had
put a house on fire in this village, a six- or seven-year-old child wanted
to run out of the house, but when he saw me he was afraid to come out, and
so the child died in the flames." He said, "that affected me. Other than
that, nothing affected me, I was just doing my job, and I was just a soldier
and had my orders."
My grandfather was a soldier too. He said, "One day the Christians had
escaped to the mountains. We noticed that. Our captain ordered us to go for
them as their fires made them easily visible, ordered us to go and kill
them."
He said, "We found the chance to and we escaped. On the road, we saw a woman
and her man standing in our path. My friend, Hussein was his name, said let’s
kill the man and take the woman." My grandfather said, "How could you do
that? We are on the run ourselves." He said, "As we were having an argument,
the man told us ‘today is our turn, tomorrow will be yours.’ We spared the
couple, but then informers told the authorities and they killed the man and
took his wife and married her away."
I mean in those times, there was this dirty policy that claimed that if you
kill a Christian the doors of heaven will open up for you. This was in their
heads.
Question: Something has to be done about the Armenian genocide and their
immigration. What do you think should be done?
Turkey says something but there is no action. It is afraid. Our grandparents
were witnesses and we have heard it all from them. That they were told
anyone who kills an Armen will go to heaven. Religion has pulled a trick on
us. We are humans, so are the Armenians and the Jews. No religion should
become an instrument of violence and destruction.
Question: You spoke of the person who answered to your grandfather about
burning homes and then seeing a child burn because he was afraid to come
out.
Yes, Ali Babekik. Yes that affects us because it makes us think about how we
can protect ourselves. That monstrosity has taught us a lesson. It makes you
think hard. I mean, here it was your government, your rulers, why were they
doing this? And worse, why aren’t they apologizing? Would they do it
tomorrow? I can’t get this out of my head.
What they did in that period, killing Armenians for not being Muslims-and
they killed Muslims they didn’t like, they were accused of being
Armenians-it makes you want to crack your head.
——————————————– ————————————————– ———
2. Liz Lerman on Using the Politics of Dance to Come ‘Out of the Darkness’
By Andy Turpin
WATERTOWN, Mass. (A.W.)-On March 21, Liz Lerman, the founding artistic
director of the Liz Lerman Dance Exchange spoke to the Weekly about her
troupe’s collaborative project performance with Apo Ashjian’s Sayat Nova
Dance Company on the anti-genocide show "Out of Darkness."
She also spoke about the roles that politics, social issues and a passion
for universal dialogue have played in both the formation of the Liz Lerman
Dance Exchange and the nature of its performances.
Lerman is a choreographer, performer, writer, educator and speaker.
Described by the Washington Post as "the source of an epochal revolution in
the scope and purposes of dance art," her dance and theater works have been
seen throughout the U.S. and abroad. Her aesthetic approach spans the range
>From the abstract to the personal to the political. Her working process
emphasizes research, translation between artistic media, and intensive
collaboration with dancers and communities.
Lerman has been the recipient of numerous honors, including the American
Choreographer Award, the American Jewish Congress "Golda" Award, and
Washingtonian magazine’s 1988 "Washingtonian of the Year." In 2002, her work
was recognized with a MacArthur "Genius Grant" Fellowship, and she was
recently designated for the National Foundation for Jewish Culture’s
Achievement Award and inducted into the University of Maryland’s Hall of
Fame.
Asked whether she considered her projects a form of "dancing journalism"
since they addressed very cutting-edge and current themes and events, she
said, "Sometimes I have thought that. I did a whole series of dances called
Docu-Dances that felt exactly like that. For me, making dances is a form of
research, just like for journalists or writers. Part of it is also selfish
on my part because I do dances on things I’m interested in. I also think
many times our U.S. political discussion and discourse just isn’t around
enough for addressing how very human human beings are."
Asked whether she had always been a very politically conscious person, or
whether the mixtures of social commentary and dance medium evolved over
time, she responded, "I was raised in a pretty political household. But in
my early years I think my being political and expressing that in my dances
was a form of rebellion on my part."
She continued, "There’s a vast world of things to dwell on. A large part of
the role politics play in the [Lerman] dances is a call to the world,
saying, ‘C’mon Art, c’mon Dance World, wake up!’ Don’t get me wrong, I love
‘Swan Lake,’ but how many versions can we do when you see what going on in
the world?"
Speaking about those choreographers who had most inspired her Dance Exchange
and its projects over the years, she related, " I have a close friend,
Jawole Willa Jo Zollar, of the Urban Bush Women Dance Company, whose
choreography and work I really love and admire. But then I have a whole slew
of contemporaries that really move and inspire me."
I asked Lerman to talk a bit about working with Sayat Nova on "Out of
Darkness" and tackling head-on issues concerning genocide and human rights
during this pivotal year in all geo-politics.
Lerman had much to say on these issues and began by stating that "Our
political campaigns in the U.S. today are really asking people to question
the issues of difference and ‘Who is the Other?’ which I think makes the
emerging discomfort in America just so significant. It’s a very, very,
interesting time."
She continued, "For this project though, I relied upon and was very moved by
the works of journalists, particularly Samatha Power and her book A Problem
>From Hell and also Philip Gourevitch’s book, We Wish to Inform You That
Tomorrow We Will be Killed With Our Families: Stories from Rwanda. … They
both came back from these places [the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda,
respectively] unable to really function as journalists are taught they’re
supposed to, in terms of staying uninvolved or objective, because of what
they saw there, and I really, really admire them for that. We quote them a
lot in the notes for the project."
She explained, "I think we all know we missed the boat in Rwanda. But I
think the response to help Darfur from churches and synagogues around the
world is profound. Kids as young as eight are hearing about Darfur all the
time. I visited a Jewish day school not long ago where a little girl said
she was hearing about it so much she was getting tired of it."
Lerman detailed the large role that the New Center for Arts and Culture
played in orchestrating "Out of Darkness," saying, "They brought us together
with the Armenian community. I think that was a big thing for them to do for
us. We may not have found the [Armenian] community without them. It’s been
very interesting and challenging."
Speaking about working with Sayat Nova and its director Apo Ashjian, she
said, "We came up against significant differences about where to leave an
audience at the end of the show. I think I hit my limit with this project
and I didn’t want an audience in an easy place at the end of this."
She added, "But for Apo, and I think the Armenian community, it absolutely
had to end in celebration and hope. I wanted to leave it in a much edgier
place."
Lerman praised the dress rehearsal she had seen, saying, "It’s so many
different things happening in one evening! It’s really an endless way for an
audience to examine cultural pride and cooperation."
Positive about the future of the Liz Lerman Dance Exchange and its prospects
for evoking and reflecting social change in humanity through the art of
dance, she said of her personal formulaic beliefs: "I try and tie the big
subjects to close personal things and daily life. I think the act of
creating and making something is a counterweight to despair. As well, I
think the act of making itself is an anecdote to the victimhood [in genocide
survivor communities] which can have disastrous effects on our youth when
left alone. I’m a missionary about art making."
From: Emil Lazarian | Ararat NewsPress
