168: The members of “Nemesis” did not kill innocent people, and Pashinyan is nothing new

“Classes” in the program Satik Seyranyan the guest is historian, candidate of historical sciences, associate professor of YSU “Armenian History” chair Hovik Grigoryan is։

In a conversation with the historian, we also touched on all the Turkish and Azerbaijani theses about the Armenian Genocide, the Great Turan, and pan-Turkism in general, which the current authorities of Armenia, led by Nikol Pashinyan, and the authoritarian circles, since 2018, have been spreading day and night, misleading the Armenian society.

The main theses of the interview are below.

• The Armenian Genocide was a comprehensive period, and the Great Genocide was a brutal but only one part of it. The Ottoman Empire, which was in its last period, had the task of maintaining the empire, and the method for this was the homogeneity of the state. The plan to exterminate Armenians was discussed for the first time in 1890. after the famous Gum-Gapu demonstration in the Gum Gapu district of Constantinople on July 15, when the issue of the elimination of Armenians was raised in the Sultan’s palace. After that, Sultan Hamid created his model of Abdulhamid pan-Islamism, which was based on the plan to destroy Christian Armenians: 300,000 victims, 100,000 assimilated Armenians, 300,000 exiles… This was the first stage. The next stage was the massacres of Cilicia, in which 30,000 Armenians became victims. Of course, there was the intervention of the Turkish state. 

The Gum Gapu demonstration (July 15, 1890) was the first mass protest organized by the Social-Democratic Honchakyan Party in K. Pols. The goal was to draw the attention of the European powers to the Armenian issue and demand the implementation of Article 61 of the Berlin Treaty. The demonstration was brutally suppressed by the Turkish authorities. The Armenian Patriarchate was located in that district.

• Hakob Papikyan was an Armenian deputy of the Turkish Mejlis, an Ittihatian who was more pro-Turkish than the Turks themselves. After the massacres in Cilicia, when there was great discontent, a committee of the Turkish Mejlis was sent to Cilicia to investigate the events. There were 4 people. two Armenians, Hakob Papikyan and Hovhannes Mostishyan, and two Muslims. When they arrived in Cilicia, he was found honest and upon his return, he revealed the truth, saying that members of the Ittihat local organization had participated in those incidents, confirming the direct involvement of the Young Turks. On the eve of presenting the 1909 Adana pogrom bulletin in the Mejlis, Hakob Papikyan died under incomprehensible circumstances, but the bulletin is still there. This is the 2nd stage of the Armenian Genocide. The 3rd stage is the Great Genocide, the heaviest stage, in which 1.5 million Armenians died.

• The other day, on the 111th anniversary of the Armenian Genocide, Erdogan made another manipulation, and the Patriarch of Constantinople presented it. The plan for the destruction of Armenians was clearly outlined already in 1910-12. At that time, Ittihat made a very quick transition to pan-Turkism, pan-Turkism. There are many testimonies that the problem of destroying the Armenian element was clearly discussed in the meetings of Thessaloniki. The first stage was the massacre of the Armenians of Western Armenia, the next would be Oghuzism, which includes the extermination of Eastern Armenians, and the last would be Pan-Turkism. Armenia is still an obstacle today, and various plans are being developed to eliminate this obstacle. Turkey nothing has changed in the programs.

(Pan-Turkism is the national, racial ideology of the Turkic-speaking peoples. The goal of that ideology was the unification of the Turkic-speaking peoples from the Adriatic Sea to China in one state unit. 

Pantukism should be practiced in 3 stages. 

1st stage. The ideology of pan-Turkism could only be realized through a strong Turkey, to achieve which it was necessary to Turkify or destroy the other non-Turkic peoples of the empire (later the state). 

2nd stage. Utility. Turkey, Azerbaijan and the northern regions of Iran should be united in one state. 

3rd stage. After successfully completing the above tasks, only Turkey should start the creation of Greater Turan (Panturanism). It should extend from the Mediterranean Sea to the Pacific Ocean, from China to the North Caucasus.).

• Andranik Kocharyan can go and see the Turkish sources, in which the names of 3 million Armenian victims are counted. If the people in power did not receive systematic education at the time, at least let them read now, learn not to add water to the enemy’s plan…

• That’s not all. We have the 4th stage of the Armenian Genocide, which includes 1918-1920. the destruction of Eastern Armenians, when the Turkish army invaded Eastern Armenia, which killed hundreds and thousands of Armenians. This phase is related to the Kemalites, the founders of today’s Republican Turkey. The fathers of today’s Turkey continue the Armenian Genocide. Erdogan continues the line of Mustafa Kemal, and Mustafa Kemal, in addition to 1.5 million, eliminated another 200-300,000 Armenians. There is also the massacre of the Armenians of Smyrna, the destruction of the Poles Armenians and the Armenians of Cilicia by the hands of the same Kemalites. The Armenian Genocide was carried out in the Ottoman Empire for more than 30 years. We often discuss the 3rd phase of the Genocide, the pivotal Mets Ekhern period, when Armenians were dispossessed, but on Armenian Genocide Memorial Day, we remember the victims of all 4 phases.:

• It is sad, but the International Institute for the Prevention of Genocide named after Lemkin today is much more Armenian than many Armenians.

• Let’s also not forget the massacres of Armenians in Sumgait, Baku, the genocidal events in Artsakh… It’s as if they forgot about them, but at one time it was remembered… Let’s remember, remind and demand… This was Aram I’s resolution yesterday, I think it is relevant today. This should become our main slogan related to this topic:

• To be honest, I haven’t listened to what he (Nikol Pashinyan, editor) said for a long time, but now that you are reading those parts of his address on the 111th anniversary of the Armenian Genocide, I understand what he wants to say, at whose order, what problem he wants to solve… In the Ottoman Empire, there was a thesis that Armenians lived there safely and happily, but fell under the influence of the Russians and the British, and that’s what happened. This is a well-known Turkish official thesis, which Pashinyan repeats. This is a fairy tale. Armenians did not live in paradise in the Ottoman Empire. I would advise you to read Mkrtich Khrimyan’s two works, “Van Gyi” and “Argyi Gyi” about the burning of the market of Van and the massacre of Armenians by Bayazet. The latter became the foundation of “Khent” of Raffu Armenians. If this is heaven, what can I say… Armenians did not live in heaven, and it is natural that Armenians, like many European nations, sought to get out of such an environment and create their own national states. And putting the guilt of the massacre of Armenians on this is inadmissible. Pashinyan is not saying anything new. this is the official turkish thesis that i don’t want to discuss too much so as not to spread it:

To remind, Pashinyan said in his address. 

“…The policy of us, the Government of the Republic of Armenia and the governing majority, is based on these thoughts and determination.

With the message of you, the citizens of the Republic of Armenia, we have shown determination to understand more deeply the history of our people that has lived in the past and is regularly repeated in order to prevent the repetition of that history in the future, to make our present and the future better.

Today, we have achieved that goal, among other things, thanks to the fact that we have understood that the Great Genocide cannot be allowed to become a tool for international players to fight against each other.

…The forces that come out with the appeals and logic of “returning the lost homeland, restoration of historical borders and justice” put the Republic of Armenia on the rails of the San Stefano Conference of 1878, the inevitable last stop of which is the loss of statehood and homeland, because everyone in the world has their own history, everyone has their own justice, everyone has their own lost homeland. We finally got out of this trap, and the attempts to lead Armenia in that direction again are an invitation to our state and people to the quagmire…”. 

• Today’s environment in Armenia is the most unfavorable environment in terms of Russia’s perception, including because of Russia’s unreasonable policy. Let’s remember the past period as well, when the Armenians of Mush and Sassoon in 1915 from spring to summer he resisted and was not saved, which is very unfortunate because the resister should have been saved. Of course, the retreat order of the Russian command played a role, and so did the lack of volunteers. This is one of the sad pages of our history, but it is not true to say that Russia organized the Armenian Genocide. Now, anti-Russian sentiment has intensified in Armenia because the Russian authorities did not behave so correctly in the matter of Artsakh, not realizing that they are creating serious problems for themselves in the region with the loss of Artsakh. When you give up, someone comes instead who has not forgotten that you are a wedge. Pan-Turkism is not forgotten, as ANM once claimed, for which it was severely criticized. When you turn from victim to accuser, you allow yourself to be retaliated against. We must not allow ourselves to be accused of what we are not guilty of. Otherwise, in the case of similar dissemination of Turkish theses by the current authorities of RA and continuing in this way, the Turks will turn from the guilty to the accuser.

• We have reached the recognition of our problem in the environment of more than three dozen countries, in some countries, the criminalization of the denial of the Genocide, today questioning the Genocide means that you stick a dagger in the back of those countries as well. Those states come out guilty, and others get a message not to deal with Armenians.

• 1988 when the Karabakh issue was being discussed in Moscow, YSU rector Sergey Hambardzumyan gave his famous speech, and I still hear a lot in Russia that your rector held the name of Armenians high. Such intellectuals should be in the foreground.

• Nemesis members did not kill innocent people. When the Young Turks still in 1918 had fled in December, the representatives of the new sultanate government admitted that a crime had been committed against Armenians. By the way, the last Sultan of Turkey, Vahideddin, was against the Armenian Genocide and sympathized with the Armenians. Military courts were opened, and the official Turkish court found the Young Turks guilty of the Armenian Genocide. It was the Turkish court that condemned Taleat, Enver, Cemal, others in absentia by suppressing the facts… That court was composed of Turks and Kurds, although it was formed at the instigation of the Entente states. According to the verdict of the Turkish court, minor characters were executed in Turkey, but the big ones escaped. The Turkish court could not do anything else. there were huge facts. By the way, the judges of that Turkish court were later convicted. One was the Kurdish Mustafa Pasha, who informed the Armenians about Enver’s movements. One of those judges is one of the maternal great-grandfathers of former British Prime Minister Boris Johnson. Boris Johnson is Turkish on his mother’s side. That Johnson’s grandfather was executed in Turkey, and the family was taken to England.

The relation of “Nemesis” to Azerbaijan and why Azerbaijanis declare that the statues of “Nemesis” and Garegin Nzhdeh should be dismantled in Yerevan. “Nemesis” was set in motion because there was a punishment that had been meted out, but there were no enforcers of that punishment. By the way, one of the first operations of “Nemesis” was against Musavatka Azerbaijan, one of the first victims was Behbut Khan Jevanshir, one of the organizers of the massacre of Armenians in 1918. In September, 30,000 Armenians died in Baku. Misak Torlakyan destroyed Behbut Khan Jevanshir, Minister of Internal Affairs of Musavatka Azerbaijan, in Istanbul, and he, like Soghomon Tehleryan, was released as a result of the trial. Later, other bosses were also destroyed. Armenian traitors were also destroyed, such as Harutyun Mkrtchyan, who compiled lists of Armenian intellectuals. Other traitors were also destroyed. It was difficult to find the major players in the organization of the Armenian Genocide, those who were hiding, fleeing from place to place, acting under someone else’s name. People have been watching for months, discovered the routes, and just carried out the punishments. And that was the final stage of the Nemesis operation, the neutralization of Talaat, Enver, Cemal. It was a long process, many remain in the shadows, only the names of the shooters are known, but many devotees are not known. If the Armenian people didn’t do that, they wouldn’t deserve to live on earth:

In 1918 in December S. Tehleryan arrives in K. Polis to find traitor Harutyun Mkrtchyan, according to whose “black list” Talaat ordered in 1915. on April 24 to exile K. The Armenian political and cultural elite of Istanbul. 1919 in February, he shoots the Armenian betrayer K. In Istanbul. Soghomon Tehleryan himself, referring to the murder of the Armenian betrayer Harutyun Mkrtchyan, writes that his execution was his own initiative. “On the long road, my only thought was that new monster, the treacherous Yarut. Wasn’t it necessary to start my mission of revenge, which had become the purpose of my existence a long time ago…”?

• Hrach Papazyan, a detective and hero, remained in the shadows, for example. who had entered the circle of the Turks, became close to them and made the greatest contribution to the success of the cause, “Nemesis”. For the sake of solving the problems of his people, he lived in the Turkish environment for a long time, heard threats and insults against his people, but he acted as the son of a Turkish landowner, he even got circumcised for the sake of the job in order to gain confidence, and he got to the point where he became friends with one of the biggest criminals, Jemal Azmi’s son. He was a true humble hero, and what he did for the Armenian people became known only in the last decade of his life:

• We don’t seem to learn from our history. We don’t think about our next step… No nation is infallible, but we need the ability to analyze and understand our own mistakes.

• There is not even 1% confidence that Azerbaijan will not do the same, the threat from Turkey has not disappeared either, the plans have not changed. But I am sure that any crime will be punished sooner or later.

• Russia and any other country is not our liberator, every nation is the main guarantor of its freedom and salvation. But it is absolutely impossible for us to worsen our relations with Russia. In the end, there are two states that are an obstacle to pan-Turkism, and it is in their interests to be a state of Armenia. They are Iran and Russia. Our interests in this matter coincide, and this cannot be ignored:

• As I said, the second stage of pan-Turkishness is Oghuzism, which solves the problem of uniting all Turks, including Caucasian Turks. Armenia is the wedge that hinders the implementation of Oghuzism. I have also said that if Nakhichevan had remained in Armenia, Zangezur might not have been given to us. But since Nakhichevan was given to Azerbaijan, Soviet Russia could not hand over Zangezur and unite the Turks. 

• The program of Great Turan, nothing has changed, the name has changed. TRIPP will be called “Zangezuri Corridor”, it’s the same thing and it’s unacceptable for us. I have no faith that it will be opened, because it is written on paper, and there are many papers in history that have not come to life.

The peace agreement is also a myth, it will not happen either. We have heard many such tales. Even now they are scaring the people with war. And who told him, Nikol Pashinyan, that there will be a war? Is he making any hints, did they say something… It’s not that easy to start a war, it’s just clear that he has a problem of keeping power, because they know where they will end up after they don’t have power… The words are also a pity.:

• God forbid, if the “Zangezur Corridor” or TRIPP becomes a reality, it means the implementation of Oguzism.

• In the 19th and 20th centuries, no nation fighting for its freedom fought so much, used so many methods of struggle, as we see in the history and environment of Armenia. In that sense, our struggle was a real Calvary, which had various reasons… The liberation struggle of our people was difficult, but our people were not toothless. We have many heroic episodes in our history. 

• After several months of blockade in Artsakh, did the government representing Armenia do anything to change the situation? Was it that difficult to open that Lachine Corridor, especially since the document of November 9 was written about it? And now the fake Azerbaijani “ecologists” who closed that Corridor are being brought to Armenia for conferences today… Russia also has a share of the blame here. But when Armenia does nothing and blames the people of Artsakh, it is not moral.

• When a soldier does not feel the breath of his people behind him, he does not fight well. In Sardarapat, in Bash-Aparan, the soldier felt that breath, he also felt it in 1991-94. In Artsakh… there was no such thing in the war of 2020…

• It is a great evil when you oppose the parts of the nation to each other, divide each other. 1918-1920 we had already encountered that phenomenon in the speech of Western Armenians and Eastern Armenians. In the future, this was not the case, now the nation has been artificially divided again, pitted against each other. This is the biggest problem and it is not done by accident. The people of 1988 were an exceptional people, with a united spirit…

• On April 24, when I was climbing Tsitsernakaberd with my grandson, I saw that the number of young people and children was very large. It was the same situation very late. This means that there has been a change in people. When a young man goes to Tsitsernakaberd, he doesn’t go for appearance, it means that his values ​​have changed. The situation forces, they understand what is really happening. This is not the young man of 10 years ago, I can see the qualitative change… I feel it also from the quality of the questions asked by young people. This inspires hope. We will have a different generation in the coming years:

• This government does not like the attitude of the Armenian Church and His Holiness. Unlike the authorities of the day, which everywhere push national interests to the background, His Holiness’s statements, especially in the outside world, related to Artsakh, the destruction of our cultural monuments, and other national issues, are a blow to Azerbaijan. His Holiness is a consistent national figure, he does not forget anything, I have great respect for him. The firm position he has adopted is the reason for the attacks against him. The Armenian Church, with the majority of its members, showed that it remains a nationwide structure dedicated to national and nationwide values. Even Ottoman the authorities did not treat influential and authoritative Armenian clergy in this way. When I heard that they wanted to tax the Church, I involuntarily remembered the Middle Ages, when the Persian Denshapuh first taxed the Armenian Church, then the Arabs did it. It is absurd to put the church under the roof in the Armenian environment. I just don’t understand in whose mind this came up. Today’s situation is reminiscent of the Bolshevik political line of the 1920s. Now nobody remembers Benik Vardapet. At that time, the state gave money for propaganda, and it created the so-called Free Church and did counter-propaganda against the Armenian Church. But even the Bolsheviks did not tax to the church. Smells like an order from outside.

• I have witnessed several times in the church that people who came to the church for the purpose of baptism or marriage were interested in who will perform their ceremony: a religious leader or a priest faithful to the Armenian Church. This is a very important thing.

• The constitutional rights of our church must be preserved. If they do what they expect and change the Constitution, it will be the grave of the Armenian state. 

• I think we will have a different situation in June. Perhaps it would be more reasonable if the political blocs were united in 3-4 blocs. The RPA made a wise decision not to participate in the elections, because the people who should vote for the Republicans will vote for any of the opposition forces. But I was surprised by the excessive, unwarranted self-confidence of some forces. Today, there is nothing more important than standing at the head of the national power, the state.

• There is no people older than us. Perhaps we have a mission, and it is no coincidence that we were formed in this geographical area. The homogeneity of our population has helped us a lot over the centuries. Armenians made up the vast majority of the population. Even today, our national homogeneity is our advantage. Importing another element from outside is a special application.

Details in the video.

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