Encore: America’s Gilded Capital
Bill talks with New York Times journalist Mark Leibovich about This Town, his book on how money rules Washington, DC.
Moyers & Company
December 6, 2013
BILL MOYERS: This week on Moyers & Company…
MARK LEIBOVICH: If you can sell yourself as someone who knows how
Washington works, someone who has these relationships, someone who can
get on the phone and get the president of the United States to pardon,
you know, your fugitive client, that’s a very, very marketable
commodity. I mean, if you see– if you are seen as someone who knows
how this town works, someone who is a usual suspect in this town, you
can dine out for years. That’s why no one leaves.
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BILL MOYERS: Welcome. I want to tell you about a book you simply have
to read. I promise, you will laugh and cry and by the end, I think
you’ll be ready for the revolution. The title is `This Town,’ an
up-close look at how our nation’s capital really works. I can tell
you, it’s not a pretty picture — the story of a city’s bipartisan
lust for power, cash and notoriety so overpowering that everyone and
everything else gets sucked into its undertow. Government becomes no
longer the servant of the people but in the thrall of big money,
lobbyists and a media happy to live off its fancy leftovers in a
feeding frenzy of gossip and shallow speculation. How appropriate that
a capital built on a swamp has sunk so low into the stinking mud.
Mark Leibovich is the chief national correspondent for The New York
Times Magazine and is the author of This Town, which has everyone
who’s anyone in Washington talking and whispering. What a tale it
is. Mark Leibovich is with me now. Welcome.
MARK LEIBOVICH: Hi Bill. Good to be here.
BILL MOYERS: I’ve read your book twice. It’s fun to read. It’s eye
opening. I learned a lot from it. And yet, at the core of it, there’s
a tragic story. Do you see that?
MARK LEIBOVICH: Absolutely. I didn’t see it fully as I was writing it,
but I see it in how people outside of Washington have reacted to
it. The tragic story is that what has grown up in this city that was
supposedly built on public service is this permanent feudal class of
insiders, of people who are not term limited. Of people who never
leave and never die, figuratively never die. And who are there and who
are doing very, very well for themselves, very, very well for
Washington, and not very, very well for the United States.
BILL MOYERS: Can you frame the historical moment in which you’re
writing?
MARK LEIBOVICH: I would frame it really over the last ten, 15, maybe
20 years you’ve had this explosion of money in politics.
BILL MOYERS: Gold rush, you call it.
MARK LEIBOVICH: It’s a gold rush. People now come to Washington to get
rich. That was never the defining ethic of the town, certainly 30
years ago. There is now so much money. It is now the wealthiest
community in the United States. It is home to seven of the wealthiest
ten counties in the United States. And frankly– it is– I mean, the
power is obviously going to be very alluring.
There are going to be some idealists who’s going to be the
make-a-difference types. But ultimately this has more in common with
Silicon Valley, with Hollywood, than with Wall Street. Which is a rush
to cash in. It is a rush to somehow take from this big entity, this
big marketplace, some kind of reward, as opposed to doing something
that will reward the country.
BILL MOYERS: What’s stunning is how disconnected Washington is, the
political Washington that you write about, from the lives of everyday
people. Is it because of this gold rush?
MARK LEIBOVICH: When you look at the disconnect between Washington and
the rest of the country, which people talk about. I mean, there’s a
shorthand, “Well, Washington is out of touch,” right? People don’t
fully know what that is made of. I mean, I think you see intuitively
on TV or when you visit Washington, that people don’t talk and deal
with people the way most Americans talk and deal with each other. I
mean, there’s a language of obsequiousness, a language of selling, a
language of spin. But most– but look– it is a wealth culture. These
are people who are doing very, very well. It’s true in the
demographics, it’s true in the sensibility.
BILL MOYERS: The people you write about in here seem very comfortable
with this town.
MARK LEIBOVICH: They do. I mean, it’s been very, very good for them. I
mean, it’s– look, this town has worked for a lot of people, a lot of
very good people, a lot of very bad people, and a lot of very mediocre
people. But these are– a lot of this book is filled with profiles of
people who have made this town work for them.
BILL MOYERS: What do the readers out across the country tell you about
the picture you have reported?
MARK LEIBOVICH: Well the disconnect, it’s interesting, Bill, has been
very much displayed in the reaction of the book. I mean, I think in
Washington you have had a very carnival like reaction to the
book. It’s, like, “Oh, who wins? Who loses? What are the nuggets? Will
Leibovich be cast out? Will he not be invited to lunch with party X or
Y again?” So you have a very silly and shallow read inside the bell
way, which is titillating I guess in its own way. Outside of
Washington you have a truer sense of the outrage. You have a sense of
an education. You have a sense of, “Oh my goodness. I’ve known
Washington has been something I’ve been disappointed in. But I didn’t
know it looked like this. I didn’t know it had come to all of this
just this– incredible contempt for what they are supposed to be there
for.” Contempt for what their constituents are, i.e., us.
BILL MOYERS: You say political Washington is `an inbred company town
where party differences are easily subsumed by membership in the
club.’ And you talked about the club. “The club swells for the night
into the ultimate bubble world. They become part of a system that
rewards, more than anything a system of self-perpetuation.”
MARK LEIBOVICH: Self-perpetuation is a key point in all of this. It is
what you’re going to– how you’re going to continue. I mean, the
original notion of the founders is that a president or a public
servant would serve a term, couple years, return to their communities,
return to their farm. Now the organizing principle of life in
Washington is how are you going to keep it going? Whether it’s how
you’re going to stay in office, you know, by pleasing your leadership
so that you get money, by raising enough money so that you can get
reelected by getting a gig after you’re done with Congress, after
you’re done in the White House, by getting the next gig.
BILL MOYERS: `Mr. Smith Goes to Washington,’ it ain’t.
MARK LEIBOVICH: No, it isn’t. And look, I tried to find a Mr. Smith
character. I wanted to, and I had some back and forth with the first
publisher of this book, which is not the ultimate publisher of this
book, about finding someone to root for. They wanted someone to feel
good about to sort of run through the narrative. And there are people
I think I could root for, the people I like in Washington, I think
people who are there for the right reasons. But I couldn’t find him or
her. And ultimately, I gave up trying. And I tried to sort of create a
cumulative picture over a five year period.
BILL MOYERS: What does that say to you?
MARK LEIBOVICH: I think ultimately it says that this is not– well,
first of all, it’s a very cautious culture. And I think cowardice is
rewarded at every step of the way.
BILL MOYERS: How so?
MARK LEIBOVICH: It’s rewarded in Congress. You everything about the
Congressional system, whether it’s leadership, whether it’s how money
is raised, is going to reward cowardice. The true mavericks are going
to be punished in some ways. If you are going– if you want to build a
career outside of office when you’re done, when you’re voted out as a
lobbyist, as a consultant, as many of them do, you are absolutely in–
you are absolutely encouraged not anger too many people. Not–
BILL MOYERS: Not take a big stand?
MARK LEIBOVICH: Not take a big stand, right. No truth is going to be
told here by– based on any sort of cowardly go along, get along
way. And I think that there are many ways in which the money, the
system is financed– the politics are financed the way the media
works, that will not under any circumstances reward someone who takes
a stand.
BILL MOYERS: As you and I both know, many Americans see Washington
today as a polarized, dysfunctional city. One that is not sufficiently
bipartisan. But you describe it as a place that `becomes a
determinedly bipartisan team when there is money to be made.’
MARK LEIBOVICH: That is absolutely true. I mean, ultimately, the
business of Washington relies on things not getting done. And this is
a bipartisan imperative. If a tax reform bill passed tomorrow, if an
immigration bill passed tomorrow, that’s tens of billions of dollars
in consulting, lobbying, messaging fees that are not going to be paid
out.
BILL MOYERS: Let’s take one example. April 20th, 2010, the Deepwater
Horizon oil well, oil rig, explodes in the Gulf of Mexico. Eleven
people killed, the largest marine spill in the history of the
industry. Oil gushes onto the seafloor for at least 84 days. You,
Leibovich, look at that crude oil flowing into the gulf, and you see
an equally large flow of cash spreading across Washington, covering
our nation’s capital to, as you say, “manage the crisis.” Now, tell us
how they set about to manage that crisis.
MARK LEIBOVICH: So BP is in this whole heap of trouble, okay? They
have this disaster that they are pegged with. The president looks
powerless. I mean, what are you going to do? You have this awful
calamity taking place. Systematically BP is spending tens of millions
of dollars to basically tie up the most prominent Washington
Democratic and Republican lobbyists, media consultants, ad people, to
where you had an all-star roster. And all of a sudden, everyone is
working together. I mean, you had rhetoric of President Obama, you
know, criticizing BP. You had BP saying, “Oh no, we’re going to make
this right.” You had Republicans saying, “Oh, the president should be
doing more.” So you had this TV sort of debate, the same noise you
would see in any other story juxtaposed with these terrible oil soaked
pelican pictures from the gulf, which in fact the city is just reaping
this bounty.
BILL MOYERS: You say BP, British Petroleum, put together a beltway
dream team that included Republican super lobbyists like Ken
Duberstein, Democratic super lobbyist Tony Podesta, former vice
president Cheney’s one time spokeswoman Anne Womack-Kolton, Republican
flacks like John Feehery and Democratic flacks like Steve McMahon and
McMahon’s business partner, the Republican media guru Alex
Castellanos, who’s a contributor to CNN.
MARK LEIBOVICH: Yes. McMahon is on MSNBC so it’s very bipartisan that
way too.
BILL MOYERS: And McMahon, the Democrat and Castellanos the Republican
are partners in a firm called Purple Strategies. BP hires them to
spearhead this $50 million television campaign you talk about.
TONY HAYWARD: To those affected and your families, I am deeply sorry.
BILL MOYERS: They were brought, you say, into the fold by the
Democratic operative, Hilary Rosen, who was working for a London-based
firm that was also working for BP. And she was also a pundit for
CNN. I mean, what a web.
MARK LEIBOVICH: And again, I think the other piece of this is that a
year later Geoff Morrell, who is the head spokesman for the Pentagon
under, you know, President Obama’s Pentagon, has become the chief
Washington spokesman for BP.
BILL MOYERS: Former White House correspondent for ABC News.
MARK LEIBOVICH: ABC News. He followed Bob Gates to the Pentagon first
with President Bush then with President Obama. Sort of a classic
revolving door figure, Geoff is. But no, so– that was– I mean, it’s
a classic two step. I mean, I also think BP has done very, very well
rehabilitating itself. I mean, thanks largely to flooding the media
with all kinds of goodies and a lot of advertising money. And we’re
supposed to feel good about BP again.
COMMERCIAL NARRATOR: Two years ago, the people of BP made a commitment
to the gulf and every day since we’ve worked hard to keep it. BP has
paid over twenty three billion dollars to help people and businesses
who were affected, and to cover cleanup costs. Today the beaches and
gulf are open for everyone to enjoy.
BILL MOYERS: And what’s the moral that you– we draw from that story?
About this town?
MARK LEIBOVICH: About this town, is– well, first of all, when there’s
a problem, there is a lot of money to be made in this town. And, look,
it’s another example of Washington doing very, very, very well.
BILL MOYERS Let’s look at Jack Quinn and Ed Gillespie
MARK LEIBOVICH: Jack Quinn is the White House counsel under Bill
Clinton. He went onto cable a lot and defended the president during a
lot of his campaign finance problems during his two terms. He met Ed
Gillespie, who was then a Republican operative in green rooms. They
had this green room friendship. People become friends. And in Ed and
Jack’s case, they went into business together. They started Quinn
Gillespie, the first real major sort of bipartisan lobbying firm.
BILL MOYERS: One stop lobbying.
MARK LEIBOVICH: One stop lobbying. You want to deal with Republicans,
you want to get to Republicans, you go here. You want to get to
Democrats, you go here. They founded them so they– their firm’s
founded in 2000. Jack Quinn got into some trouble in 2001 after he
successfully lobbied Bill Clinton to pardon his law client, Marc Rich.
BILL MOYERS: Fugitive.
MARK LEIBOVICH: Fugitive Marc Rich. There was a big to-do then. Jack
was big time in the barrel. He’s hauled before Congress. He feels like
he’s being looked at in restaurants. And Ed Gillespie said, “Look,
Jack, in a few months everyone’s going to forget about this and all
they’re going to remember about you and this incident is that you got
something big done.” And sure enough– you know, Jack did a good job
for his client. The outrage dissipated. And the firm– the lobbying
firm thrived with the rest of the industry.
BILL MOYERS: Four years later, they sold out for $40 million. Now how
do they make that much money in four years and the talent they bring
is that they’re creatures of Washington?
MARK LEIBOVICH: That’s a very, very, very valuable commodity. I mean,
if you can sell yourself as someone who knows how Washington works,
someone who has these relationships, someone who can get on the phone
and get the president of the United States to pardon, you know, your
fugitive client, that’s a very, very marketable commodity. I mean, if
you see– if you are seen as someone who knows how this town works,
someone who is a usual suspect in this town, you can dine out for
years. That’s why no one leaves.
BILL MOYERS You once asked the Democrat Jack Quinn what appealed to
him about the Republican Ed Gillespie, who became his partner when
they first started bonding. And he answered?
MARK LEIBOVICH: Well, =80=9CEd got the joke.’
BILL MOYERS: What’s the joke?
MARK LEIBOVICH: That’s what I said. I said, “Jack, what’s the joke?’
And he said, “The joke is that, well, we’re all patriots.” And I
thought that that was both– it was some mix of sarcasm, contempt,
glibness– I don’t know. It was a fascinating answer.
BILL MOYERS: You reported here, that `over the last dozen years
corporate America, much of it Wall Street, has triple the amount of
money it spent on lobbying and public affairs in DC,’ because, and I’m
quoting you, =80=9Chave figured out that despite the exorbitant calls
to hiring lobbyists, the ability to shape or tweak or kill even the
tiniest legislative loophole can be worth tens of millions of
dollars.”
MARK LEIBOVICH: First of all, there’s extravagant waste in the private
sector of Washington if you go to some of these lobbying offices and
parties and what they’re billing people. I mean, it looks like an
incredible racket. In fact, these companies are getting what they pay
for. I mean, Tony Podesta we talked about before, a Democratic
lobbyist, talked about how great it is that laws are so complicated
now. The context was I think it was Dodd-Frank or it might have been
in health care, there are these tiny little loopholes. They go on for
thousands of pages. And if you can be a lobbyist or a lawyer at a firm
who can understand this much and you’re getting paid, you know, tens
of millions of dollars, but you’re probably saving your clients, you
know, hundreds of millions of dollars, sometimes more. So it’s very
cost effective. I mean, the complete arcaneness of this world is
again, very, very good for business.
BILL MOYERS: Let’s quickly run through some of the roll call of
influence peddlers that you write about. Billy Tauzin.
MARK LEIBOVICH: Billy Tauzin was a former Democrat, became a
Republican congressman. Went on to become the head of the– one of the
top pharmaceutical lobbies in the country
BILL MOYERS: After, in the House, overseeing the drug industry,
chairing the committee that oversaw the drug industry. And he was
crucial in passing the Medicare prescription bill, which has meant
billions in profits for the drug companies. Then he resigned, as you
say, ran the pharmaceuticals lobbying arm in Washington. And in 2010,
according to you, made $11.6 million. Steve Kroft and `60 Minutes’ did
an exposé of him.
STEVE KROFT on 60 minutes: I mean, this doesn’t look good. When you
push this bill through that produces a windfall for the drug
companies, and then a short time later you go to work for the drug
lobby at a salary of $2 million.
BILLY TAUZIN on 60 minutes: There’s nothing I could have done in my
life after leaving Congress that I didn’t have some impact on after 25
years in Congress. If that looks bad to you, have at it. That’s the
truth.
STEVE KROFT on 60 minutes: In fairness to Billy Tauzin and former
Medicare chief Tom Scully, they weren’t the only public officials
involved with the prescription drug bill who later went to work for
the pharmaceutical industry. Just before the vote, Tauzin cited the
people who had been most helpful in getting in passed.
BILLY TAUZIN on 60 minutes: I specifically want to thank the staffs
and committees from Ways and Means. John McManus that did such a great
job.
STEVE KROFT on 60 minutes: Within a few months McManus left Congress
and started his own lobbying firm. Among his new clients were PhRMA,
Pfizer, Lilly and Merck.
BILLY TAUZIN on 60 minutes: From a majority side of the finance
committee, Linda Fishman-
STEVE KROFT on 60 minutes: Fishman left to become a lobbyist with the
drug manufacturer Amgen.
BILLY TAUZIN on 60 minutes: Not the least of all but the energy and
commerce committee staff who toiled so hard for us – chief of staff
Pat Morrissey.
STEVE KROFT on 60 minutes: Morrissey took a job lobbying for drug
companies Novartis and Hoffman-LaRoche.
BILLY TAUZIN on 60 minutes: And Jeremy Allen.
STEVE KROFT on 60 minutes: He went to Johnson and Johnson.
BILLY TAUZIN on 60 minutes: Kathleen Weldon and Jim Barnett.
STEVE KROFT on 60 minutes: She went to lobby for Biogen, a biotech
company. He left to lobby for Hoffman-LaRoche.
BILLY TAUZIN on 60 minutes: They did a marvelous job for this house
and we owe them a debt. Thank you all.
MARK LEIBOVICH: We owe them all right. Wow. Yeah, I mean, this
happens– it happens with every bill. I mean, I think– what was
striking about that is Congressman Tauzin actually sort of– if we
sent a resume out on all of their behalf, by sort of doing a roll call
in his remarks. But look, I mean, that– the Steve Kroft piece was
stunning in that I think he caught Tauzin just, oddly flat-footed. I
mean, I think we’ve seen in reading his face, he seemed almost
flat-footed that the question would be asked.
I mean, no one is really going to burn any bridges. I mean, it’s like
one big bridge, in some ways. And look Jack Abramoff is a name that
actually has not come up here. He’s the picture of modern disgrace in
Washington, right? The disgraced lobbyist.
One of the many books I read in preparing this book was his memoir,
which he wrote, I think, largely I don’t know if he wrote it in
prison. But I think a lot of it was probably derived from his
ruminations in prison. He told about how he knew as a lobbyists, he
would have all these relationships with people on the Hill, people in
the White House, people-elected officials.
And at a certain point, they would say, “Hey, you know what
Congressman X? Or you know what, Staffer X? You’re really good at
this. When you’re done– have you thought about what you’re going to
do when you leave the Hill?” And they’d say, “Well, not really.” Or
they would just sort of leave the question open. And Jack Abramoff
said, “I knew that when I could ask that question, I owned him.”
Because there’s a preemptive bribe there.
It’s– you know, “You’re going to be making maybe a million dollars at
my lobbying firm, if you answer this question correctly and you act
correctly.” I mean, in your office, if you can help us. If you can
maintain this friendship for as long as you’re in power. I mean– when
you see Peter Orszag going to Citigroup, when you see Jake Seiwert
going to Goldman, when you see Geoff Morrell going to BP, it does sort
of beg the question, “Who were they working for when they were at the
Pentagon, at the OMB, at the Treasury Department?” I mean, you just
sort of wonder where their mind is.
BILL MOYERS Trent Lott. You say he’s the he’s the archetype of the age
of the former. What’s a former?
MARK LEIBOVICH: A former is a former office holder, a former senator,
a former congressman, a former White House deputy chief of staff, or
whatever. I mean, the line I have in the book is that, “Formers stick
to Washington like melted cheese on a gold plated toaster.” They don’t
go home anymore. They talk about how much they hate Washington, but
they settle in here– quite comfortably. And Trent Lott was the Senate
majority leader– you know, very powerful Republican. He kind of
abruptly retired in 2007 I think, went into business with John Breaux,
a Democratic senator. He was a long time senator from Louisiana. As a
member of Congress, Breaux said that his vote– someone called him a
cheap whore and he said, “I’m not that cheap.” And he also said, “My
vote cannot be bought. It can be rented.” Anyway, Trent Lott–
BILL MOYERS: So you’ve got the Republican Lott and the Democratic
Breaux–
MARK LEIBOVICH: Demo-another–
BILL MOYERS: –creating a boutique lobby firm.
MARK LEIBOVICH: Yeah, although they eventually were absorbed into
Patton Boggs which is, you know, one of the bigger lobbying firms in
town–
BILL MOYERS: Tommy Boggs, son of the former speaker, Democratic
majority leader, Hale Boggs, who’s–
MARK LEIBOVICH: Exactly.
BILL MOYERS: –one of the most– well, arguably the most powerful
lobbyist firm in Washington.
MARK LEIBOVICH: Or it has been for many, many years. But anyway, so
Trent Lott and John Breaux have been very, very successful in the last
five, six years as lobbyists. Trent Lott, a pretty candid guy. He
talked about how much he hates Washington. I said, “So why do you
stay?” and he looked at me like I was crazy, and he said, “Well,
because this is where all the problems are, but this is where all the
money is.’ I mean, this is what keeps people here. And it’s true. No
one leaves anymore.
BILL MOYERS: Richard Gephardt.
MARK LEIBOVICH: Richard Gephardt, former House majority
leader. Two-time presidential candidate. A hero to organized labor.
BILL MOYERS: Son of a teamster.
MARK LEIBOVICH: Son of a teamster, milk truck driver. Gave some of the
most impassioned campaign rallies I’ve ever seen in places like Iowa
and–
BILL MOYERS: For working people.
MARK LEIBOVICH: For working people. I mean, he seemed like the real
deal. He became a lobbyist, like a lot of members of Congress do. And
he since has worked for a lot of corporations.
BILL MOYERS: Goldman Sachs, Boeing, Visa, I get from your book.
MARK LEIBOVICH: Yeah. I mean, again, many of them not terribly
friendly to organized labor.
BILL MOYERS: In Congress, as you say, he fought for labor. But then he
went to work for Spirit Aero Systems, overseeing a tough anti-union
campaign. And then in the House he had supported a resolution
condemning the Armenian genocide of 1915. When he left Congress he was
paid about $70,000 a month by the Turkish government to oppose the
resolution?
MARK LEIBOVICH: Yeah. I mean, I guess the word, “genocide” goes down a
little easier at those rates, right I mean, I don’t see any shame
there. I don’t– again, he’s allowed to change his mind for money. I’m
allowed to be outraged.
BILL MOYERS: Evan Bayh, Democrat from Indiana.
MARK LEIBOVICH: Yeah, Evan Bayh was this, you know, two term
senator. He retired very, very extravagantly in the pages of “The New
York Times” about how Washington is broke and how he was tired of all
the yelling matches and partisanship and how nothing gets done. And he
wanted to get into an honorable line of work. And a lot of his
colleagues were not happy with this description, but also were rolling
his eyes because they were, like, “Where was that outrage when you
were in office?”
And one of his colleagues said, “Well, that’s the most effective
speech he’s given, you know, in eight years here, or in 12 years
here.” He immediately joined Fox News, he joined the Chamber of
Commerce. I mean, this is someone who was a runner up to be President
Obama’s running mate.
MARK LEIBOVICH: He and Andy Card, the White House chief of staff under
President Bush, they sort of did a dog and pony act in which they
would go out in the country on behalf of the Chamber of Commerce and–
BILL MOYERS: Which is the biggest business lobby–
MARK LEIBOVICH: Biggest business lobby in Washington absolutely.
BILL MOYERS: In Washington.
MARK LEIBOVICH: A big thorn in the side of this White House. And have,
you know, been giving a lot of speeches sort of– in support of that
agenda.
BILL MOYERS: In your book you quote one journalist calling Bayh, `the
perfectly representative face for the rotted Washington
establishment.” Another of your colleagues said he was “Acting to
entrench the culture of narcissism and hypocrisy that’s killing the
United States Congress.” Another describes him `practically a
caricature of what a sell-out looks like.’ I would take from your book
that you don’t think those depictions are too harsh.
MARK LEIBOVICH: No, not at all. I think it’s true. Look, I mean, you
don’t have to– I mean, I just sort of lay out the examples. I lay out
his words. I mean, again, he was so sanctimonious in his departure.
EVAN BAYH: Can we not remember we are “one nation under God” with a
common heritage and a common destiny? Let us no longer be divided into
“red” states and “blue” states but reunite once more as fifty red,
white, and blue states. As the civil rights leader once reminded us:
“we may have arrived on these shores in different ships, but we are
all in the same boat now.”[…]
So my friends, the time has come for the sons and daughters of Lincoln
and the heirs of Jefferson and Jackson to no longer wage war upon each
other but to instead renew the struggle against the ancient enemies of
man: ignorance, poverty and disease. That is why we are here. That is
why.
MARK LEIBOVICH: He was so disgusted with Washington. And, of course,
he stayed. And there are all these examples of what he has gone on to
do. So, look, it all speaks for itself. I mean, you can– it’s nice
that there are commentators who can put a fine a point– or a finer
point on it. But this is all out there.
BILL MOYERS: Chris Dodd, former Peace Corps volunteer.
MARK LEIBOVICH: Chris Dodd, very nice guy, very fun-loving guy. I
mean, very sort of, you know, outspoken liberal. He was– he had this
great legislative last hurrah in 2010, where he– you know, he
coauthored Dodd-Frank. He was one of the chief engineers of the health
care bill. I remember talking to him when he announced he wasn’t going
to run. He got in some trouble– was very, very unpopular back in
Connecticut. He got in some trouble with a mortgage broker.
BILL MOYERS: He took a loan, I think, from Countrywide–
MARK LEIBOVICH: Countrywide.
BILL MOYERS: –in the housing–
MARK LEIBOVICH: In the housing–
BILL MOYERS: –bubble.
MARK LEIBOVICH: Right, at a time when he was, you know, presumably,
you know, chairman of the banking committee could have been very
involved in that. But also was running for president in a fairly
quixotic–
BILL MOYERS: With a lot of money from–
MARK LEIBOVICH: A lot of money from Wall Street. You know, and he
basically decamped to Iowa for a few months in 2008. Chris Dodd, I
remember having lunch with him in the Senate dining room and saying,
“So what are you going to do now?” And it was a triumphant moment. And
he– I mean, because he– these bills were actually going to pass.
And he said– “Oh, boy, the possibilities are endless. I mean, I could
be a college president. I might go out to work for some startup. I
might rejoin the Peace Corps.” I mean, he had this look of
possibility. And I said, “So you’re not going to lobby, right?” And he
said, “Oh no, no, no, take that off the table right, right now.” And
he is now head of one of the most powerful lobbies in town, the Motion
Pictures Association of America. You know, he would say that, “Well,
I’m not registered to lobby, technically.” And it’s true. But he also
oversees a staff of lobbyists. And the chapter about that is– I talk
about just the institutionalization of being part of the political
class.
BILL MOYERS: Do you think he lied to you?
MARK LEIBOVICH: He would say that his thinking evolved. He would– I
don’t think he– I don’t know. What do you call it? It turned out not
to be true. I mean, he– look, it’s disappointing. I mean, I have to
say that as someone who is looking for someone to level with him.
BILL MOYERS: The official language in Washington is fraudulent
language. It’s the language of spin, marketing, P.R.
MARK LEIBOVICH: It’s not how human beings talk to each other. But
yeah, no, it’s– people don’t rec– you become very anesthetized. And
Washington is a huge, huge dome of anesthesia. People don’t fully know
just, again, the B.S. that is just part of the day to day
transaction. And again, it’s hard to realize when you’re living
there. I mean, I think Bob Bennett, the senator from Utah, he was
voted out.
BILL MOYERS: He lost to the Tea Party candidate.
MARK LEIBOVICH: Tea Party guy. He, I think, was– someone said, “So
you’re going to cash in.” He goes, “I’m entitled to make a living.”
And that’s– look, it’s what they do.
BILL MOYERS: You write about– you write about Anita Dunn. Tell me
about Anita Dunn.
MARK LEIBOVICH: Anita Dunn is a long-time Democratic operative. She
was one of the top aides for President Obama’s ’08 campaign. She was
the communications director for a time in the White House. Very, very
sharp woman.
BILL MOYERS: As you say, Anita Dunn helped Michelle Obama set up her
`Let’s Move’ program to stop obesity. I’m almost quoting you verbatim.
MARK LEIBOVICH: Yep, sure.
BILL MOYERS: Then she signs on as a consultant to the food
manufacturing and media firms trying to block restrictions on sugary
foods targeting children. Her husband, by the way, and this is, of
course, incidental I’m sure, happened to be the president’s White
House council.
MARK LEIBOVICH: Certainly Anita Dunn has benefited greatly from a
perception of her being still a figure with ties to the White House,
whether it’s her husband who’s now the former White House council. But
someone who has all kinds of friends there. Who’s on the phone there
all the time. I mean, that has to be a boon to her corporate clients.
BILL MOYERS: You talk about President Obama and his campaign and his
opposition to the revolving door. Let me play you an excerpt from one
of his speeches.
BARACK OBAMA: But the American people deserve more than simply an
assurance that those who are coming to Washington will serve their
interests. They also deserve to know that there are rules on the books
to keep it that way. They deserve a government that is truly of, by,
and for the people. As I often said during the campaign, we need to
make the White House the people’s house. And we need to close the
revolving door that lets lobbyists come into government freely, and
lets them use their time in public service as a way to promote their
own interests over the interests of the American people when they
leave.
BILL MOYERS: And what happened?
MARK LEIBOVICH: They have put this law in place, “We won’t have
lobbyists in the White House.” They kept making exceptions. They–
there have been a number of people who they have waived that rule
for. But ultimately, I think what’s happened is more on the other
end. You said people leaving the White House to go right to K
Street. You’ve had people leaving the White House going right to
Goldman Sachs, going right to BP, going right to Citigroup. I mean,
some of the biggest corporate nemeses in this administration in the
first term are now being staffed at the highest levels by people who
were staffing the Obama administration at the highest–
BILL MOYERS: Peter Orszag, who was Obama’s–
MARK LEIBOVICH: –director of management and budget director.
BILL MOYERS: Now at Citi.
MARK LEIBOVICH: High level at Citi. Jake Siewert who was a chief
counselor to Tim Geithner, secretary of treasury– they were doing all
kinds of battle with Goldman Sachs during the first term, especially
after the financial crisis. Jake is now the head of communications for
Goldman Sachs. I mean, you–
BILL MOYERS: And so many of them have a connection to someone else who
figures prominent in your book, Robert Rubin.
MARK LEIBOVICH: Yeah, Robert Rubin–
BILL MOYERS: Was Clinton’s treasury secretary.
MARK LEIBOVICH: There’s always been a symbiosis between Wall Street
and Washington to some degree. But I think the Clinton Era introduced
a whole new level of magnitude to this. And Bob Rubin, who was the
sort of storied head of Goldman Sachs for many years, coming to take
the reins of treasury was really– I mean, he was a real guru. And
brought a lot of protégés, Larry Summers being the biggest example, to
town. Tim Geithner being another one. And yeah, and then, you know,
the economy crashes, the banks crash. I mean, Robert Rubin gets a
great deal of blame. I mean, Bill Clinton himself did a mea culpa on
Robert Rubin.
BILL MOYERS: On ABC News.
MARK LEIBOVICH: On ABC News, on George Stephanopoulos.
BILL MOYERS: Rubin had been a force in killing Glass-Steagall, which
was the firewall between commercial banks and investment banks.
MARK LEIBOVICH: Investment banks.
BILL MOYERS: And he was a big supporter of derivatives, deregulation.
MARK LEIBOVICH: Absolutely.
BILL MOYERS: And all that contributed to the fiscal crisis. After he
left the Treasury Department, he went to Citi.
MARK LEIBOVICH: Went back to Citi–
MARK LEIBOVICH: –Citi.
BILL MOYERS: You say he made $126 million in nine years.
MARK LEIBOVICH: No, he did. No, he did very, very, very well. And–
BILL MOYERS: And you called Rubin “The primest of movers of in the
modern marriage of politics and wealth creation.”
MARK LEIBOVICH: He was the ambassador to the Clinton wealth machine. I
mean, even– I mean, you had people like Rahm Emmanuel, who was a
mid-level White House, you know, operative in the Clinton White House,
who, was able to go to Wasserstein Perella and make, you know, $16.2
or $16 point something million.
BILL MOYERS: $18 million in two years.
MARK LEIBOVICH: And then before he went back to become a public
servant again and run for Congress. But yeah, Bob Rubin brought this
whole generation of Wall Street people to Washington. Then he brought
them back from Washington to Wall Street, greatly enriched. And look,
he’s a hero to a lot of people on Wall Street. He was a hero to a lot
of people in Washington. And again, I think Bill Clinton more than
anyone in the last, you know, few decades has sort of engineered this
relationship.
BILL MOYERS: When we come back, Mark Leibovich and I will talk about
how the Washington press corps has been seduced by the power game, but
first, this is pledge time on Public Television. We’re taking a short
break so you can show your support for the programming you see right
here on this station.
BILL MOYERS: For those of you still with us… For all its greed and
power madness, Washington’s still a place where citizens can go and
make a noise. Here’s a story from earlier this year about a group of
restaurant workers who barely survive on minimal salaries and customer
tips. They marched on Capitol Hill for a fair wage and a square
deal…
For the past 22 years, these workers have been stuck at a federal
minimum wage of $2.13 an hour. At the head of the march, Saru
Jayaraman.
PROTESTERS: Roc United!
BILL MOYERS : The organization she co-founded, Restaurant
Opportunities Centers United, is fighting to improve wages and working
conditions for the people who cook and serve the food we eat at
restaurants and then clean up when we’re done.
Saru Jayaraman’s new book Behind the Kitchen Door is an insider’s
expose of what it’s really like to work at the lowest rungs of the
restaurant industry.
SARU JAYARAMAN: There are actually now over 10 million restaurant
workers in the United States. So seven of the ten lowest paying jobs
in America are restaurant jobs, and the two absolute lowest paying
jobs in America are restaurant: dishwashers and fast food preps and
cooks are the two absolute lowest paying jobs in America. These
workers earn poverty wages because the minimum wage for tipped workers
at the federal level has been frozen for 22 years at $2.13 an hour,
and it’s the reason that food servers use food stamps at double the
rate of the rest of the U.S. workforce, and have a poverty rate of
three times the rest of the U.S. workforce.
We got to this place because of the power of the National Restaurant
Association; we call it the other NRA. They’ve been named the tenth
most powerful lobbying group in Congress and back in 1996 when Herman
Cain was the head of the National Restaurant Association, he struck a
deal with Congress saying that, `We will not oppose the overall
minimum wage continuing to rise as long as the minimum wage for tipped
workers stays frozen forever,’ and so it has for the last 22 years.
Imagine your average server in an IHOP in Texas earning $2.13 an hour,
graveyard shift, no tips. The company’s supposed to make up the
difference between $2.13 and $7.25 but time and time again that
doesn’t happen.
And when slow night happens and you don’t earn anything or very little
in tips you often can’t pay the rent. And I guarantee you in every
restaurant in America there’s at least one person who’s on the verge
of homelessness or being evicted or going through some kind of
instability. It’s an incredible irony that the people that who put
food on our tables use food stamps at twice the rate of the rest of
the US workforce. Meaning that the people who put food on our tables
can’t afford to put food on their own family’s tables. The other key
issue that we find that workers face is the lack of paid sick days and
healthcare benefits; two-thirds of all workers report cooking,
preparing, and serving food when they’re ill, with the flu or other
sicknesses. And with a wage as little as $2.13, so reliant on tips for
their wages, these workers simply cannot afford to take a day off when
sick, let alone risk losing their jobs. The majority of workers are
adults; many are parents and single parents, single mothers, using the
restaurant job as their main source of income. We partner with more
than a hundred small business owners around the country who are doing
the right thing, providing good, decent wages, better working
conditions, paid sick days, benefits, opportunities for
advancement. So I think that’s the first thing I would say to a small
business owner is, `Look, there are tons of people who are already
doing it. We’re here to help you, they’re here to help you try this
new way of doing business.’
BILL MOYERS: Acting on that democratic impulse, Saru Jayaraman and the
protesting workers march from Capitol Hill to the Capital Grille
steakhouse, owned by one of the biggest restaurant chains in
America…
SARU JAYARAMAN: Eighty-six thousand customers of yours have signed a
petition calling on you to pay a minimum of at least five dollars an
hour to your workers cause $2.13 is just not enough to live on. So
here you go.
CAPITAL GRILLE MANAGER: Thank you.
SARU JAYARAMAN: Thank you.
NARRATOR: We now return to Moyers & Company…
BILL MOYERS: Let’s get to the press. You write, “Never before has the
so-called permanent establishment of Washington included so many
people in the media.” And you write, “The Washington press puts the
`me’ in `media.” How so?
MARK LEIBOVICH: Look, I mean, first of all, just the rise in new media
has given everyone a voice. I mean, the rise of cable has given
everyone a face. I mean, it’s never been easier to become a media
celebrity. And I think punditry has replaced reporting as the gold
standard of my profession. I mean, there– the media is everywhere in
Washington. I mean, I think the White House Correspondent’s Dinner is
a classic example of how Washington, you know, rewards being famous,
being on TV, being a brand– more than anything.
BILL MOYERS: Your descriptions of the White House Correspondent’s
Association Dinner, the annual dinner are fabulous in the book. The
dinner’s sold out every table since 1993, at $2,500 a pop?
MARK LEIBOVICH: Yeah, but I mean, even the greater outrage is that
there’s– it now goes over five days. You have probably about two
dozen pre-parties and after parties. You probably have tens of
millions of dollars, some funded by corporations, in entertainment, in
sort of people sucking up to everyone else, and food and musical acts
and so forth.
Because, of course, you know, a single banquet is no longer sufficient
to celebrate the accomplishments of the Washington media. Tom Brokaw
who has become a real activist against the White House Correspondent’s
Dinner said that it sends the message that it’s all about the people
on the screen. It’s all about the media. Which I think to some degree
is true. I mean, the media is feeling great about itself. The media is
as rich as any other part of the economy. And I think the
Correspondent’s Dinner is a classic example of this.
BILL MOYERS: Have you attended one?
MARK LEIBOVICH: I have, although not since 1996, because the `New York
Times’ stopped letting us go.
BILL MOYERS: Why?
MARK LEIBOVICH: They thought it was too– Dean Baquet, who’s now the
managing editor of `The Times’, he was the Washington bureau chief of
`The Times.’ I think it was in 2007, actually, declared that this is
too cozy. He didn’t like the message it sent. He would prefer that we
stop going. I thought it was a great decision.
BILL MOYERS: Describe the dinner to me.
MARK LEIBOVICH: It’s just this room full of tuxedoed people.
A lot of Hollywood celebrities come in. A lot of people talk about,
you know, the good that the press does. But again, it’s an
extravaganza that continues, that it becomes the ultimate bubble
world, the ultimate example of decadence in Washington that people
know intuitively is wrong, but have no either will or ability to stop
it.
REPORTER 1 at the WHCD: This is a big night in Washington. Anyone
whose anybody is here. And the key question for everyone in Washington
is `What are you wearing?’
REPORTER 2 at the WHCD: So you’ve got the politicians, the
journalists, and plenty of celebrities thrown in between. I had a
Katie Perry sighting, saw Bradley Cooper too.
REPORTER 1 at the WHCD: Is there anyone you’re excited to meet
tonight?
MICHAEL STEELE at the WHCD: Everyone actually. I just came here with
my buddy Chris Tucker it was good to see him.
REPORTER 1 at the WHCD: You know Michael Steele?
CHRIS TUCKER at the WHCD: Michael Steele? Who is Michael Steele?
REPORTER 3 at the WHCD: And who are you wearing tonight?
CELEBRITY at the WHCD: Badgely Mischka.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOLOUS at the WHCD: You’re asking people what they’re
wearing and all that….
REPORTER 1 at the WHCD: Are there any political conversations you’re
going to have at all?
KIM KARDASHIAN at the WHCD: Sure we’re having one now aren’t we?
ROBERT GIBBS at the WHCD: Is this still not the craziest thing ever?
When did this get to be like this?
BARACK OBAMA at the WHCD: Thank you everybody. How do you like my new
entrance music?
MARK LEIBOVICH: The problem is excess. To some degree, it is perfectly
emblematic of the reality distortion field inside of Washington, of
just having no sense whatsoever. And what I think is sort of striking
is this year Kevin Spacey is the star of `House of Cards,’ which is
not a very flattering picture of Washington. And Julia Louis-Dreyfus,
who is the star of `Veep,’ which is this very, very funny HBO show.
BILL MOYERS: About the vice president.
MARK LEIBOVICH: About the vice presidency, neither of which paint
Washington in a flattering light. They both showed up to the
dinner. They went to the big after party sponsored by Vanity Fair and
Bloomberg. And they were both swarmed. Everyone was like, “Oh, we have
to get our picture taken with Kevin Spacey and with Julia
Louis-Dreyfus, who, I mean, ultimately, paint a hideous portrait of
how Washington works. And Washington at its most grotesque and
perverse. And yet, that’s what we’re celebrating. And again, you do
sort of pinch yourself after one. It’s like, “What are we celebrating
here?”
BILL MOYERS: There’s a sequence in Netflix’s `House of Cards’, where
some of Washington’s best-known journalists are playing themselves in
a fantasy world.
GEORGE STEPHENOPOLOUS on House of Cards: Just before we came on the
air, I received an advance copy of an article that’s going to be in
tomorrow’s Washington Herald – it’s front page, and it was written by
Zoe Barnes. And in it she quotes an editorial that ran in the Williams
College Register when you were editor back in September 1978 which
called the Israeli presence in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank quote,
an illegal occupation. […]
JOHN KING on House of Cards: Quoting a source close to the President
as saying that Katherine Durant will likely be the new nominee for
Secretary of State after Michael Kern’s withdrawal.[…]
CANDY CROWLEY on House of Cards: Congressmen Frank Underwood says he
got quote schooled by AFT spokesman and chief strategist Martin
Spinella during a debate last night on this network. In the past 24
hours reruns of the gaff have played non-stop on tv news programs and
the internet. […]
BILL MOYERS: Does it say something to you that prominent journalists
are willing to erase the line between reality and fiction?
MARK LEIBOVICH: That if you look at something like `House of Cards,’
if you look at something like the Correspondent’s Dinner, where you
have Hollywood and Washington merging and you have kind of a joined
mind, a joined fame machine. You realize that the lines might not be
that drawn to begin with. It– in any mind. I mean, I think one of the
things– there’s a scene at the end of this book in which a member of
the campaign team from 2012 for President Obama said, “After a while
it just seemed like everyone was thinking about who was going to play
them in the next version of `Game Change’,” which is this campaign
book that was written by Mark Halperin and John Heilemann about the
2008 campaign, best-seller. And again, that sort of goes to the larger
cinematic sense that people have with themselves here. There’s this
sense of preening, a sense of, “Who’s going to play me in the movie?
Will I get a cameo playing myself in the movie?” as people in the
`Game Change’ movie did. That’s another scene in here. And again, it’s
a sort of blame– it’s a sort of blurring of the larger class of fame,
of really the ruling class in the public perception game. That I think
is as much a part of this decadence as really anything else.
BILL MOYERS: I was surprised when I read the book, because I have
followed your reporting. And you were reporting good stories,
anecdotal stories, and fact-driven stories. But they didn’t seem to
have the narrative arc that emerges in this. Was that something you
came to in the course of writing it or in the course of reporting? How
did that come about?
MARK LEIBOVICH: It became a moment. And it– and it did occur to me
in– in being exposed to this that the political class that I’m
writing about has reached some kind of critical mass in the 21st
century. I think there’s something going on in Washington that needed
to be called out.
BILL MOYERS: And the moment you talk about?
MARK LEIBOVICH: The moment I talk about. Again, I don’t think the can
be sustained. And I think it’s indecent. I think it is not how
Americans want their government and their capital city to be. I think
in some ways– and I always sort of cower under this– this claim when
people ask me for prescriptions. But I think in some ways– I mean,
I’m holding a mirror to a culture. It is a culture that people only
know around the edges. I wanted to take it sort of full on, in all its
components, including the media, and hope to paint a picture that will
stand as something that is lasting for this era.
BILL MOYERS: Is it conceivable to you that one, two, three, or four
more people in your book might say, “Wait a minute, this is
shameful. And they can’t change it out there, because we are
impenetrable. So I’m going to stand up. And we’re going to change it
from within.”
MARK LEIBOVICH: I mean, look, I mean, there are a lot of good people
in Washington. I mean, it sounds contradictory given a lot of what
we’ve talked about. But there are people who– a lot of people who
especially when they’re young or when they were young, they came from
a place of decency. They came from a place of hope. And that doesn’t
completely go away, right? So-look, I wrote a book– and I’m speaking
as a journalist– who– that I think in probably some level was a
product of disgust, my own disgust. Maybe even there was a level of
unconscious desire to check myself before finding myself too deep in
the club, too much a part of this world. And, I mean, so look, I mean,
I absolutely love– would love this book to be a source of shame, of
self-reflection. But I think– I am willing to start with
discomfort. If this is a source of discomfort, I’m very happy with
that, too.
BILL MOYERS: Suppose this culture in Washington is more representative
of the country today than you want to acknowledge. What if Washington
has become the Wall Street way, the Las Vegas way, the Silicon Valley
way?
MARK LEIBOVICH: It it’s a classic chicken/egg question. What we have
now in the population is a level of dissonance, right? It’s a level of
disgust that is parallel to– you know, maybe some indifference. But
that is also parallel to your own role in reelecting your congressman,
your own role in watching these shouting matches on cable, your own
role in perpetuating this system, and being in– being transfixed by
these ads. So yes, I mean, I think that this dissonance is something
that lives in a very, very distilled way inside our nation’s
capital. And I think it’s acted out by these– by these real-life
players, who are in a very writ-large way experiencing both the
American dream and the American nightmare. And that is something that
I think makes this town, but also the nation’s capital, at this
moment, a very, very palpable place to watch this disconnect play
out. And again, it’s a lot to get your head around. I do think it is
worth a discussion. And frankly a smarter discussion than many people
in Washington are willing to have.
BILL MOYERS: This Town is the place to begin. Mark Leibovich, thank
you very much for the book. And thank you very much for being here.
MARK LEIBOVICH: Thank you, Bill.
BILL MOYERS: That’s it for this week. I’m Bill Moyers, see you next
time.
This week’s show () originally aired on
August 20, 2013.
Mark Leibovich covers Washington, DC, as chief national correspondent
for The New York Times Magazine. In his new book, “This Town,” he
writes about the city’s bipartisan lust for power, cash and
notoriety. It’s the story of how Washington became an occupied city;
its hold on reality distorted by greed and ambition. Leibovich pulls
no punches, names names, and reveals the movers, the shakers and the
lucrative deals they make – all in the name of crony capitalism.
From: Baghdasarian