Washington Post
Online Discussion
Turkey and Iraq
Turkish Planes Bomb Kurdish Rebels Along Iraqi Border
Soli Ozel and Amar Bakshi
Professor of International Relations, Istanbul Bilgi University and
PostGlobal Blogger/Reporter
Thursday, October 25, 2007; 11:00 AM
Turkey has ramped up military operations along its southern border
with Iraq, with aircraft reportedly bombarding the mountainous terrain
on Wednesday, part of a growing confrontation that threatens to open a
new northern front in the Iraq war.
Relations between Turks and Kurds are strained by recent events in
Hakkari and along the border from where Amar Bakshi, PostGlobal
blogger/reporter, recently filed reports.
Soli Ozel, professor of International Relations at Istanbul Bilgi
University, and Bakshi were online from Istanbul on Thursday, Oct. 25,
at 11 a.m. ET to discuss policies and perceptions in Turkey.
A transcript follows.
____________________
Amar Bakshi: Sorry for the delay. We just had some internet problems.
I’m here with Soli Ozel, Turkish journalist and PostGlobal panelist.
He’s going to help us talk through some of the big issues facing
Turkey today, and look at perceptions of America as well.
I’m currently traveling around the world looking at how America is
perceived. Right now I’m in Turkey. Just arrived 5 days ago, and have
been posting at It’s an important time
to look closely at Turkey, and figure out its internal dynamics, and
Soli is a great person to get us going. I’ll be throwing in some
questions, and if you have any questions about How the World Sees
America feel free to throw them in as well.
_______________________
washingtonpost.com : How the World Sees America
_______________________
Princeton, N.J.:1. We invaded Iraq on the premise that they ‘might’
engage in terrorism at some time in the future. Turkey is right now
experiencing terrorism. Why don’t they have the right to invade
Kurdistan?
2. We designated the part of the PKK attacking Turkey as terrorist.
Why haven’t we done the same with the part attacking Iran?
3. Even if the PKK are stopped, will Turkey take the part of the
Turkish people being ethnic cleansed in Kirkuk?
Soli Ozel: If we look at the first two questions obviously there is
aquestion of double standards, yes. We know the PKK has an Iranian
branch fighting the Iranian governmetn and nobody calls them a
terrorist organization but they are presumably the same branch of the
terrorist organization. Making Turks suspicious of whether they are
being taken on a ride. As far as Turkey’s right I do think they
present a case for self defense under UN rules because they are being
attacked by a force being stationed within a neighboring country.
However there is a debate within this country on whetehr moving
massively insdie northern Iraq would be a wise decison esp. given the
mess the US found itself in in IRaq proper. So the debate continues.
Turkey believes it has a legal right to pursue those attacking it
through cross border operations. Unless US forces (which Turkey
considers to be the masters of the situation) and Northern IRaq
collaborate to bring this under control things might really get out of
hand. And they may bring in ground forces. As for Kirkuk the Turks are
concerned about the fate of the Turkeman. The Turks have changed the
demographics of the sitaution. The UNited States did the right thing
by persuading the Kurds not to push the isue of the referenedum which
has been pushed to an uncertain time in 2008 and it may not stll take
place. Trying to annex Kirkuk through a rigged referendum would make a
lot of trouble for a currently trouble free zone and that is currently
the Kurdish regional government zone.
_______________________
Detroit, Mich.: Although most Americans are opposed to terrorist acts
and groups, I think people are conflicted about Turkey’s fight with
Kurdish rebels. What we read in our newspapers here in the U.S. is
that Kurds do not have the equal rights to express themselves that we
expect minorities in countries to have. Turkey’s reaction to the
proposed Armenian genocide bill in the U.S. House of Representatives
made many Americans feel that Turkey does not want to acknowledge the
past treatment of minorities and thus may not want to have equal
rights for them at this time.
Soli Ozel: Well, again it’s a way of reading things which I think is
not correct. To put it in the starkest possible terms this is not
apartheid South Africa. Kurds don’t have separate bodies of
legislation. They do vote for the Turkish national assembly and many
Kurds are elected into Turkish national assembly and since the reforms
of the past 6 or 7 years things have gotten much better regarding
citizens and currently there exists a party that represents the
Kurdish. The opening of the political space for the Kurds in recent
times is precisely why many Turks do not understand or are worried
about what goes on becasue in a democratic system you try to get what
you want through debate, reason adn parliamentary motions. If you use
violence and do it indiscriminately, this is not something any
democratically run government could accept. It has no legitimacy in
that case at all. This is why when some observers of the Turkish scene
try to legitimize or justify terrorism or acts of terror, the Turks
are bewildered and they don’t accept the reasoning.
_______________________
Newark, N.J.: How much of what’s happening now can you attribute to
Resolution 106 to recognize the events of 1915 between Armenians and
Turks as genocide? And what do you think the implications will be if
this resolution passes when it is put to a full House/Senate vote?
Thank you
Soli Ozel: I really dont think there is a conneciton between
resolution 106 and what the PKK had been doing. Let’s recognize the
fact that the PKK affiliated parties candidates received a lower
percentage of the votes nationally in the 2007 elections than they did
in 2002. There was almost a 3% drop which is perciptious. Second, the
ruling AKP party acheived more votes in the Kurdish area. This shows
the PKK civilian movement was certainly retreating in terms of its
political pull or attraction. Under those circumstances, any violent
organization would try to bring back the bad old days of the violence
of the olden days.
I see their activities as blatant provocation which is why I would not
want to see Turkey going into a massive invasion of Iraq which would
be falling into the trap the PKK set up for it.
_______________________
Arlington, Va.: Is this Kurdish conflict Turkey’s opportunity to
acquire an interest in the northern Iraqi oil fields?
Soli Ozel: There may be some people who fantasize about that but it is
not part of the debate. The Turkish oil company is bidding as a
legitimate bidder to develop northern IRaqi oil feields but thats
basically it.
Soli Ozel: The oil bill that the US wants enacted in Iraq is being
blocked by the Kurds so looking at the timing of certain things there
are Turks who believe the PKK is attacking Turkey and drawing the rage
of Turkey against Barzani in particular because the UNited States
wants to punish the Kurds for blocking the oil bill. IN that case you
assume the PKK is on the pay roll of the US and it really gets too
complicated. But it does fit a certain chain of thought pattern.
_______________________
Freising, Germany: I’ve read that a concern of the Turkish government
regarding Iraqi Kurdistan, is that if it becomes independent, then
Kurds in Turkey will want to separate from Turkey and join the new
Kurdish state.
But I’m confused about the actions of the PKK. By attacking Turkey and
provoking the Turkish government into attacking Iraqi Kurdistan,
aren’t they just going to weaken and destabilize Iraqi Kurdistan, and
destroy any chance at a Kurdish nation?
What are the locals’ opinions their Iraqi brethren and on the PKK?
Soli Ozel: Excellent reasoning. Yes the Turksih fear an independent
Kuridstan will be irredentist. Barzani expressed irrendist views many
time. It would be an attraction for Turkey’s own Kurds. The argument
against this, taht people who favor Turkey’s further integration with
the EU, if we become a country with a 15000 income, there would be no
reason for Kurds to desire to be citizens of a Kurdistan which may or
may not become stable or democratic in the near future. As for PKK’s
actions, I think Turkey may be attacking Iraqi Kurdistan and that
would mean Turkey getting involved in the United States and that’s
number one.
The reasoning of the PKK for porovking Turkey to enter Northern Iraq,
US is displeased so US-Turkey relations are harmed and Turkey’s own
Kurds are going to feel their Iraqi brethren are being hit by the
Turkish government on ethnic basis. This could return repression to
the region and cause a resurgence of separatism, serving PKK’s
interests.
_______________________
Princet on, N.J.: To further the consporacy theory you mentioned. PKK
terrorists in Turkey have been found with modern American weapons.
"Some people believe" that these were given to them to use in Iran (by
the CIA, etc.), but found their way to Turkey instead.
Soli Ozel: You have the same organization on the same mountain. On
what side there are the "good guys" attacking Iran and on the other
side of the mountain they are PKK and they are a terrorist
organization. How do you distinguish the two? TUrks find it
incredible. If the US gives it to one side of the mountain what
prevents it from putting it on the other side. IT’s absurd. You’d be
hard pressed to convince the Turks there isnt something fishy there.
The US has not been credible or persuasive in getting the Turkish
public to actually see the US side which says it did not have any
contacts with the PKK. I see no reason why the US would prefer the PKK
to Turkey but the entire situation is a bit absurd.
_______________________
Fairfax, Va.: What is the target of Turkey? The PKK terrorists or
preventing a Kurdish entity there in the long run? And do you think
the military operation is in the interest of Both Turkey and the
Region?
There is nothing clear about the length and specific objectives of the
military operation. As a Kurdish origin Turkish citizen I do not
beleive that an intervention will solve the problem but rather it will
deepen the current cleavages among the people of the Turkey….
Soli Ozel: First of all there has not been an order for a massive
incursion of ground troops therefore it is unreasonable to expdect the
timetable and objective and all the rest. There are undoubtedly people
in this country who would like to do away with the Kurdistan political
entity. I am not convinced that this is the majority. I think the
primary aim is to get the PKK. The Kurdistan regional gov and mr.
barzani become targets of ire when they seem to be protectin the PKK
and they defy Turkey to do anything. Under those circumstances things
get really out of hand. In the long run this is the wrong calculus.
_______________________
Amar Bakshi: Hi all, sorry for not answering any questions so far. I’m
typing away for Soli who isn’t too fast at this, so he can get his
thoughts out there. I’ll answer your questions directed to me at the
end. Thanks for being here!
_______________________
San Francisco, Calif.: This question is for Soli. Turks are famous for
their nationalism. How does the average Turk view the possibility of
getting more involved in this war?
Soli Ozel: The public mood is very very attavistic, and militarized,
and that in my view is unfortunate. The media are adding fuel to this
fire and that’s I said earlier I hope cooler heads will prevail and
that the US will step in and do something other than just give us talk
and the tempers subside. If there is another PKK attack or any harm
done to the hostages, the flood will destroy whatever damns are put
before it and I don’t think any governmetn could stop the public cry
out for a vengeful military incursion.
_______________________
Istanbul: Do you know difference between Terrorists and Rebels? Please
take responsibility for international rules. USA and England
government recognized PKK, PEJAK and so on as a Terrorist. You have to
take responsibility for people who read your newspaper. They can take
this knowledge in different way.
Soli Ozel: In all of the conflicts we know of we have this problem of
definition. Someones terorrist is someone elses freedom fighter. But
for me the bottom line is anything that harms civilian lives is
terorrism period. And secondly, wehn there are democratic means
availble I dont see any justification for a resort to violence.
_______________________
Stockholm, Sweden: It did not take more than a few months for
Indonasia and the representatives of Aceh to solve the "Aceh Problem,"
but it has taken more than 80 years for the Turks to recognize the
very existence of the Kurdish people. Turkey wants to become a member
of the EU, but the behavior of Turkey is far from that of civilized
Europe. The Turks don’t even recognise the Iraqi Constitution and
refuse nogtiating with any Iraqi delegation with representatives of
the Kurdistan Regional Government in it. If you don’t negotiate with
the constitutionally recognized Kurdistan Regional Government, then
how can you expect them to solve your problems?!
Soli Ozel:
Turkey did have a period when it refused to recognize Kurds and they
were not mountain Turks. Those idiocies are behind us. Speaking the
Kurdish langauge was also banned for a period of eight years but that
is over too. We can go back and dispute a lot of dirty history and
that will be done I’m sure but I dont see the point of it when you can
actually look forward. We first have to establish all the liberal and
democratic credentials and then we can look back and see what to retel
in history.
The AKP, then the foreign minister, Mr. Gul, now our president was
going to meet Mr. Massoud Barzani’s nephew and two weeks prior to the
meeting the chief of staff in a talk indicated that he did not really
favor such a meeting and stopped it cold.
Refusal to recognize the Kurdish parliament is part of the struggle
between the Turkish military and the AKP or has become so.
_______________________
Falls Church, Va.: Amar, it seems from your writing like you’ve been
right in the thick of things over there. Can you tell us a little bit
more about what exactly the Kurds you talked with are afraid will
happen? How will a military offensive affect them?
Amar Bakshi: I’ve met Kurds with many different points of view. In
Van, I spent a day with a teacher who loosely sympathized with Kurdish
rebels, but I also heard stories of people repulsed by PKK violence,
committed to distancing themselves from it, and using the democratic
process to acheive their ends. PKK terror also affects Kurds, who are
anxious to get rid of the guns on either side of the. An escalation in
tensions frightens everyone I spoke to, who hope Turkey does not
invade Northern Iraq, and also hope PKK violence stops so another
mechanism, be it international intervention or more internal
negotiation can lead to resolution. But times are tense, and what
people say on the surface and act upon are different. But the
impoverished Kurds I met are between a rock and a hard place, looking
for a safe way out. And that means talking and moving forward rather
than stewing on old resentments. I say this, but there is lot of
nationalist feeling to. It is still hard to parse it all out for me as
clearly as Soli does, but I will keep trying to do so day by day.
_______________________
Amar Bakshi: Thank you Soli for talking with us. You helped me think
through some of this, and I’m sure our readers as well. Readers, you
can follow Soli at PostGlobal () and
you can follow my travels through Turkey day-by-day at
Many thanks for talking through this
with us.
_______________________
Editor’s Note: washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control
over Discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and
hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
washingtonpost.com is not responsible for any content posted by third
parties.
Source: ssion/2007/10/24/DI2007102402182.html