AL-ASAD THE SLAUGHTERER MUST GO, SAYS FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER
French Foreign Ministry website
July 12 2012
France
“Interview with Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius” by Le Nouvel
Observateur”
[Translated from French]
[ Le Nouvel Observateur ] Did the Paris conference of the Friends of
the Syrian people achieve the objectives that you set yourself?
[Fabius] Overall, yes. When more than 100 states – half the countries
of the world – gather in Paris to condemn the Syrian regime, to define
the path to a political transition, and to bring specific aid to the
opposition, and when at the same time a general closely associated
with Bashar al-Asad [Syrian president] defects, that is a good day for
freedom in Syria. By means of this conference we also lent greater
weight to the process defined in Geneva a week earlier – a halt to
the violence, a transitional government, a Constitution, and free
elections. The Syrian opposition is not yet totally united, but this
is improving. We were able to bring some 100 of its representatives to
the conference in Paris. The internal resistance was able to speak
there. Overall, several concrete decisions were made to support
the extension of sanctions against the Syrian regime and to bring
additional humanitarian support to the population. All this moves
in the right direction, but is unfortunately not sufficient. What is
needed is to implement these good decisions.
[ Le Nouvel Observateur ] Why did the meeting of the five major
countries in Geneva 30 June accept a compromise that did not explicitly
demand Bashir al-Asad’s departure?
[Fabius] The compromise that we reached in Geneva does indeed imply
his departure. That meeting of the “Action Group,” convened at UN
and Arab League special envoy Kofi Annan’s request, convened the five
permanent members of the Security Council plus a few other states, and
for the first time we signed a joint document, whereas the situation
had previously been blocked as a result of the Russian and Chinese
vetoes. Of course, different interpretations were given after the
event. But the documents have a meaning: they state that executive
power in Syria must be held by a transitional government and that
it will be formed by common consent. So that excludes Al-Asad! Now
Kofi Annan has the task of securing the different parties’ support
for this agreement. It’s difficult. If he succeeds, well done! In
the event of failure, the document would have to return to the UN
Security Council, under Chapter VII. If that happens, we shall see
what attitude is adopted by all those who signed the Geneva document.
[ Le Nouvel Observateur ] Is there a political alternative to Bashir
al-Asad? Do you have the names of acceptable successors?
[Fabius] That’s a legitimate question, and indeed one raised by the
Russians. This is why we welcome the fact that the opposition is
organizing. It’s not easy under such circumstances to produce another
Abraham Lincoln right away! In order to build the transitional
government we need to find recognized figures both within the
resistance and probably also from among the less compromised members
of the regime.
[ Le Nouvel Observateur ] Should the European sanctions be extended
to those helping the Syrian regime, and particularly Russia, which
still supplies it with weapons?
[Fabius] Above all we must ensure on the one hand that the sanctions
already adopted are implemented by all, starting with the countries of
the region, and on the other hand strengthen the sanctions. Here are
two examples: Greece must stop importing Syrian phosphates; similarly,
the Syrian telecommunications company, in which a Swedish firm has
interests, must cease its activities. As for Russia, we oppose the
supply of weapons, because it helps to militarize the conflict. We
are engaged in dialogue with the Russians and we tell them that
to support Al-Asad is to invest in the losing side and that this
loss could hamper their influence in the region. The Russians and
Chinese argue that there position stems from their rejection of any
interference in third countries’ internal affairs; but because of its
very gravity, the Syrian crisis in fact now threatens regional peace,
with possible repercussions for Lebanon, Turkey, Israel, and Jordan.
[ Le Nouvel Observateur ] Has the time not come to tell the Russians
that we will wait a while before supplying them with force projection
ships?
[Fabius] As you know, France is a country that exports arms, but
always subject to conditions – no weapons that can be reexported or
used against civilian populations. You know Jaures’ watchword, which
applies perfectly to a foreign minister: “To seek the ideal and to
understand the real.” So there must be a dialogue. But Al-Asad the
slaughterer must go.
[ Le Nouvel Observateur ] A Turkish aircraft has been brought down
above international waters. In the event of further Syrian attacks
on Turkey, should NATO intervene to help its ally?
[Fabius] This question was recently re-examined by the NATO Council.
We stayed within the framework of Article 4 of the Charter, which
envisages, in the event of an attack, consultation among the parties –
and not Article 5, which concerns an intervention. What I note above
all is that the military were able to bring down a targeted Turkish
aircraft. That means that they shot at a target. This must provide
food for thought for everyone, and particularly for those tempted to
formulate strategy in abstract terms.
[ Le Nouvel Observateur ] Francois Hollande [French president] said
that he would not rule out a military intervention if the Security
Council were to authorize it.
[Fabius] The president has examined all hypotheses, as he must,
but we have not reached that point.
[ Le Nouvel Observateur ] Would it be possible to envisage a military
intervention outside the UN framework? As in Kosovo?
[Fabius] We set our action within the framework of United Nations’
decisions. If, as they did by signing the Geneva agreement, the
Russians and the Chinese support the Annan plan and the need for a
political transition – that is, in fact, Bashar al-Asad’s departure –
it will not be necessary to resort to military forces to topple him.
[ Le Nouvel Observateur ] Meanwhile you have pledged to supply
transmission resources to the Syrian rebels.
[Fabius] This is not weaponry but communications equipment to enable
the resistance to communicate without being heard by the Syrian regime.
[ Le Nouvel Observateur ] We know that weapons are being supplied to
them by Qatar, Saudi Arabia…
[Fabius] The alternative is frightening. If we deny all supplies,
there is a danger, in view of the difference of forces, of depriving
the resistance of means of defence and therefore granting the regime a
decisive advantage. If we supply weapons, we risk feeding the conflict
and violence. For our part, we do not supply weapons.
[ Le Nouvel Observateur ] How will it be possible to honour Francois
Hollande’s commitment to penalize [denial of] the Armenian genocide
without damaging relations with Turkey at this critical time?
[Fabius] The president is resolved to honour his commitment and has
reaffirmed it. We are currently examining ways of doing this.
[ Le Nouvel Observateur ] You recently announced in Japan 60 million
euros aid per year that France will pay to Afghanistan after NATO’s
departure in 2014. What will that money be used for? How long do you
give Hamid Karzai before he is overthrown by the Taleban?
[Fabius] During the presidential campaign Francois Hollande pledged to
withdraw our combat troops from Afghanistan by the end of 2012. This
commitment will be met, in coordination with the Afghans, the
coalition, and the quest for the maximum security. Afghan troops have
now taken over in Kapisa. But our military withdrawal does not at all
signify a civilian disengagement – on the contrary. I announced in
Japan – with which, let me say in passing, we will be establishing
an exceptional partnership – that we will increase our civilian
support to Afghanistan, along the lines set by the Franco-Afghan
treaty of January 2012, which will be submitted for Parliament’s
approval this summer. This mainly involves aid in the form of medical
supplies, education, agriculture, archaeology, cultural exchanges,
infrastructure, and security training. Our cooperation will be
focused in the Kabul area and will be subject to several conditions,
verified each year – progress with governance, democratic elections,
an effective struggle against corruption, observance of women’s rights,
and so forth. We hope that all this will help to bring peace to the
country, but I’m the first to acknowledge the great difficulty of the
task. The solutions require first and foremost reconciliation among
the Afghans. Second, they are not all dependent on Afghanistan. Other
countries will also be of crucial importance – Pakistan, Iran, India,
China, and so forth.
[ Le Nouvel Observateur ] The negotiations on Iran’s nuclear programme
have clearly come to a halt. At what point will you conclude that
they have failed? And if so, what is the next step?
[Fabius] Iran is a great country, a great civilization, which is
entitled to civilian nuclear energy, but Iran must not have access to
nuclear weapons, because the spread thus caused would pose a serious
danger in itself and to the entire region. Negotiations are taking
place, but unfortunately they’re making hardly any progress. In order
to try to persuade the Iranian regime to budge, we have adopted a
twofold approach – to implement sanctions and to engage in dialogue.
When I say “we,” I mean the six countries talking with Iran – that
is, Germany and the five permanent members of the Security Council,
including the Russians and the Chinese. If the present deadlock
continues, we will further step up the sanctions, which, according
to our information, are already beginning to have an effect.
[ Le Nouvel Observateur ] Do you intend to adopt a strong initiative
to try to restart the peace negotiations between the Israelis and
the Palestinians?
[Fabius] We speak the same language with everyone: things must budge.
Why? First, because the Palestinians’ right is still not being
observed: this is a major injustice, totally contrary to international
law. Furthermore the failure to resolve this conflict is causing
tensions in the sub-region and beyond. I tell my Israeli interlocutors
to be very careful. Hitherto there has been a disconnection between the
“Arab springs” and Israel. If there were to be a political stiffening
or a deterioration of the situation in the “Arab spring” countries,
we could fear that the Israeli question could be raised by the
revolutionary movements themselves, which would be problematical.
Mahmud al-Abbas [Palestinian [National] Authority president], a man
committed to conciliation, is willing to talk, I’m convinced. He’s not
calling for all or nothing. Prime Minister Netanyahu is in a strong
political position. Now is the time to move forward and to negotiate.
[ Le Nouvel Observateur ] The Socialist Party was in favour of
unilateral recognition of the state of Palestine, as was Hollande
during his campaign. What has changed your minds?
[Fabius] We haven’t changed. The Palestinians are entitled to a
viable state. Israel is entitled to security. So it’s not a matter of
deciding on a gesture that could jeopardize the objective pursued. We
have discussed this with Mr Al-Abbas. Between now and the UN General
Assembly in September we hope that the Israelis will demonstrate
their concrete will engage in dialogue, and the Palestinians, too. The
priority is for this dialogue to resume and to produce real progress.
[ Le Nouvel Observateur ] In Mali the jihadis an occupying the North
of the country. What should be done? A military intervention?
[Fabius] The challenge in Mali is to prevent the establishment of a
kind of “Sahelistan,” which would pose a major threat to the Africans
and us. Terrorists, some of them from Libya, have taken possession
of the North of the country. They are extremists ready to die, who
want to implement the sharia, who do not hesitate to commit rape
and murder, and who identify France as their main enemy. They have
weapons and money from drug dealing and kidnapping. On the other side,
the legitimate governments enjoy inadequate financial, military,
or human resources. So this is a serious threat both to Mali itself,
which is currently cut in two, and to the entire region. These very
mobile groups have many connections. They are outright “incubators”
of terrorism. What have we done about this hitherto? At our
African friends’ request, we have played a facilitating role. To
this end I recently appointed a special representative, Ambassador
Jean Felix-Paganon, and, together with the president, we have met
several leaders of the region. I will also be going there soon. We
have supported the Africans at the UN Security Council and drawn the
permanent members’ attention to this, which permitted the approval
last week of a resolution under Chapter VII. This lays the foundations
for restoring constitutional legality, restoring Mali’s integrity,
and a struggle against AQIM [Al-Qa’idah in the Lands of the Islamic
Maghreb]. The EU is also providing help in training security forces,
action against famine, and development.
[ Le Nouvel Observateur ] Is it feasible that we could intervene at
some point?
[Fabius] An intervention is a matter for the states of the region. We
could provide support, if necessary.
[ Le Nouvel Observateur ] But the countries of the region, within
ECOWAS [Economic Community of West African States], clearly lack the
means to act.
[Fabius] Some of these countries do have significant forces. Sometimes
they lack equipment.
[ Le Nouvel Observateur ] What about neighbouring Algeria?
[Fabius] In a few days’ time I will be will meeting with its leaders
in Algiers to conduct a general review. We will probably broach
this subject, too. To its misfortune, and to its cost, Algeria has
experienced the ravages of terrorism in the past. It is a great
country that does not want to interfere in others’ affairs but that
understands that the long-term establishment of a hotbed of terrorism
in the heart of Africa would pose a threat to all.
[ Le Nouvel Observateur ] Ali Bongo was recently received at the Elysee
[French presidency]. You went to see him during the campaign.
What is the raison for this visit, which raises fears of a return to
the incestuous ties between France and its African private domain?
[Fabius] I went to Gabon, as I did to other countries, to deliver a
speech for the HEC [School of Advanced Commercial Studies]; out of
courtesy, I visited the president: that’s all there is to it. On the
other hand Ali Bongo, like several other African heads of state, has
recently visited the French president. I attended those meetings and I
can confirm to you that French Africa [Francafrique] is finished! We
will have strong relations, based on equality and transparency,
with the whole of Africa. It is a continent of the future. Eventually
700 million Africans will speak French. They are our neighbours, our
friends, and our partners. These are all reasons for cultivating close
relations with this wonderful continent. We are a long, a very long,
way away from Mr Sarkozy’s [former president] arrogant, offensive,
and ultimately saddening speech in Dakar.
Would you say that Mr Bongo was elected democratically?
[Fabius] If your question is whether we will pay attention to human
rights and observance of democracy, the answer is clearly “yes.”
[ Le Nouvel Observateur ] How can a break with French Africa be
demonstrated?
[Fabius] All previous governments, including Socialist governments,
have announced its death, but the old habits have returned. By driving
out these old habits once and for all. You will note that there is no
longer a cooperation minister, no longer any specialized governmental
or quasi-governmental agency. Relations with the African countries
are dealt with in the normal way. I will maintain close relations with
the governments, but also with civil societies and opposition groups.
Pascal Canfin, minister-delegate for development, will help me in
dealing with these matters, in Africa as on other continents.
French Foreign Ministry website
www.diplomatie.gouv.fr