Author: Chatinian Lara

ONSTAGE DAZZLEMENT; DRAMATIC INSTINCTS HELP SOPRANO SCORE MAJOR ROLES
by Bob Clark

The Calgary Herald
March 26, 2009 Thursday
Alberta

Only nine years after vaulting into prominence by taking first
prize in the Operalia competition (The World Opera Competition,
founded by Placido Domingo), the young Armenian-Canadian soprano
Isabel Bayrakdarian already has a career that most classical singers
can only dream about. Time magazine hailed her exceptional musical
ability and stage presence by describing her as "a soprano voice that
combines lyricism with remarkable dramatic instincts."

Bayrakdarian has sung major roles at the Met, the Salzburg Festival,
the Saito Kinen Festival (under Seiji Ozawa), Covent Garden, Houston
Grand Opera, and the Lyric Opera of Chicago. She was also heard by
millions on the soundtrack of The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers,
and has won four Junos–the most recent for her CD of Mozart arias
and duets, with fellow Canadians Russell Braun and Michael Schade.

The Toronto-based singer has expanded her impressive discography into
the pop realm, as well, appearing as guest soloist with the Canadian
band Delerium on its 2007 Grammy nominated dance remix, Angelicus.

Hear Bayrakdarian in recital tonight at the Rozsa Centre in the
Millennium Music Foundation’s 11th season finale, An Evening of Opera
Favorites, accompanied by her husband, pianist Serouj Kradjian. The
program features music by Schubert, Bellini, Pauline Viardot, Maurice
Ravel, and Fernando J. Obradors, among others. The concert begins at
7:30 p. m. Tickets: Call Ticketmaster, or MMF at 403-283-5388.

When Calgary pianist Charles Foreman sounds the final note in his
concert on Saturday at the Rozsa Centre, he will have become the first
Canadian to perform all of Chopin’s solo piano works in public. One
hundred and fifty-three pieces played over the course of nine programs
in three years.

"I think I’m out-cycled," says Foreman, laughing. "Although I’m doing
a very modest cycle next year–the 24 Debussy Preludes– in something
called one concert."

It must have done wonders for your technique?

"I do feel like I’m pianistically in great shape," Foreman says. "It’s
a challenge for the memory, and a challenge for the fingers. And it’s
certainly a challenge for interpretation, when you’re talking about
all the nocturnes, all the mazurkas –you have to make something out
of each of those things.

"But what’s intrigued me also is that I haven’t got even the least
bit bored. A piece which I found perhaps less attractive becomes
interesting to you when you look at it in a complete cycle–you think,
‘You know what? This is a better piece than I thought.’ "

A Chopin Portrait IX, presented as part of the University of Calgary
Celebrity Series, begins at 8 p. m. Tickets: $20, $15, available by
calling 403-220-7202, or at the door.

The Instrumental Society of Calgary presents saxophonist Jeremy Brown,
with percussionist Rod Thomas Squance and pianist Marcel Bergmann,
in an afternoon of music that roams from jazz and classical,
to world beat. Both standards and original compositions, in the
jazz category. Showtime: Sunday at 3 p. m. at Scarboro United
Church. Tickets: $15, $10, $40 (family), available at the door,
or by calling 403-440-6829.

Taking Flight, theUof C drama department’s annual festival of
student work, takes off on March 31 at Reeve Theatre where it flies
daily through April 11 (except April 5 and 6). Front and centre
in this year’s edition is RADIO-HEADED 2: IT IS THE 21ST CENTURY,
a music-and-movement staging of Radiohead’s In Rainbows, facilitated
by One Yellow Rabbit’s Denise Clarke. Other work showcased (each play
runs several times throughout the festival) includes Harold Pinter’s
A Kind of Alaska; staged readings of Blood:A Scientific Romance by
Meg Braem, and Our Last White Night by Andrew Torry; Phaedra by Jean
Racine; Polygraph by Robert LePage and Marie Brassard; The Actor’s
Nightmare by Christopher Durang; The Hakka Root by Victoria Lee;
and The Shawl by David Mamet.

Festival Pass: $15. Single tickets: $5. Available by calling 403-220-
7202, or at the door. For times and full descriptions of work offered,
visit Music Voices presents The Golden
Age, a concert featuring Calgary vocal quartet Voicescapes with guest
tenor Tim Shantz (new conductor of both the Calgary Philharmonic Chorus
and Spiritus Chamber Choir) and Toronto lutenist John Edwards. Expect a
program of English Renaissance solo songs and part-songs with poetry
by Sir Philip Sidney and his contemporaries. Time: Saturday at 8
p. m. at Christ Church Elbow Park. Tickets: $25, $20, at the door,
or at Classics Plus record store.

HEAD OF ACBA-CREDIT AGRICOLE BANK AWARDED ‘NATIONAL ORDER FOR DESERTS’

ArmInfo
2009-03-27 15:46:00

Ambassador of France to Armenia Serge Smessow has awarded Director
General of ACBA-Credit Agricole Bank Stepan Gishyan a "National Order
for Deserts". The solemn awarding ceremony was held on March 26 in
the French Embassy in Armenia with participation of Armenia’s Prime
Minister Tigran Sarksiyan, Economy Minister Nerses Yeritsyan, Chairman
of Central Bank Artur Javadyan, delegation of the French banking group
of Credit Agricole and representatives of Armenia’s financial system.

According to S. Smessow, S. Gishyan is awarded for his contribution
to development of the French-Armenian relations. "This award has
been deserved. S. Gishyan is a close and sincere friend of France,
he has done much for development of France-Armenia cooperation",
the ambassador said. He added that S. Gishyan permanently renders
assistance to the French University in Armenia, as well as supports
holding of different cultural events by the Embassy. "It is important
that S. Gishyan is both Francophile and Francophone", S. Smessow
emphasized.

For his part, S. Gishyan said the cooperation of ACBA-Credit Agricole
Bank with the French banking group of Credit Agricole has been lasting
for 15 years already and it is exemplary by its results. "The major
part of our bank staff is French-speaking, moreover, we serve almost
all the French-speaking persons in Armenia", S. Gishyan emphasized.

According to the Ranking of Armenia’s commercial banks, prepared by
the Agency of Rating Marketing Information (ArmInfo), "ACBA-Credit
Agricole Bank" takes the leading positions by key indicators as of
January 1, 2009. So, the bank’s total capital as of this date made up
$85 mln (1st position), assets – $403.6 mln (1st position), volume of
credit investments – $279.8 mln (1st position). Over 70% in the total
portfolio of agricultural credits of Armenia’s banking system fall on
"ACBA- Credit Agricole Bank" which specializes mainly on crediting
of agriculture. The bank completed the year 2008 with net profit of
$14.5 mln (2nd position). The French banking group Credit Agricole
has been a majority shareholder of "ACBA-Credit Agricole Bank" since.

17:35 25/03/2009
BERNARD FASSIER: `HALF-PERFECT COMPROMISE BETTER THAN PERFECT WAR’
Source: Panorama.am

Armenian-Azerbaijani forum, organized by `International Alert’
organization, focused on the peaceful resolution of Nagorno Karabakh
conflict launched in Vienna, Austria. The OSCE Minsk Group co-chairmen
Mattew Bryza, Bernard Fassier and Yuri Merzliakov have also attended
the forum. Bernard Fassier mentioned that compromising does not mean
to be defeated. The French diplomat mentioned that a new war could
start after the adoption of NKR independence and its return to
Azerbaijan.

He has also stressed that Madrid principles are not the perfect ones
but a half-perfect compromise is better than a perfect war.

American co-chair Mattew Bryza said that the societies keep fair to
their positions whereas some feeling of reliability is created between
Sargsyan and Aliev.

CLINTON FORWARDED A MASSAGE TO NALBANDYAN

20:16:40 – 25/03/2009
Lragir.am

On March 25, the Armenian foreign minister Edward Nalbandyan met with
the OSCE Minsk group co-chair, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for
European and Eurasian Affairs Mathew Bryza. Mathew Bryza conveyed to
the Armenian foreign minister the message of the U.S. State Secretary
Hillary Clinton, where the State Secretary dwelt on the Armenian and
American links, regional issues and the normalization of the Armenian
and Turkish relations.

The State Secretary expressed her readiness on contributing the peace
settlement of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict.

THE CORNERSTONES OF FREE SOCIETIES
Rev. Fr. Ktrij Devejian

The Armenian Reporter

March 14, 2009

YEREVAN – Freedom of assembly, freedom of the press, freedom of
expression and freedom of religion are cornerstones of free societies.
But each has been limited by governments for the greater good. Laws
are made by governments with the consent of the governed to limit and
curtail certain activities. Speed limits, responsible use of
firearms, minimum drinking ages, etc., are just a few examples.

One may argue that a speed limit in front of a school is an
infringement of my liberties as a free individual; however the safety
of the children walking to and from school supersedes my right to
drive at 120 km/h down that same street.

So as a society, we make tradeoffs. It’s the way civil societies work.

The point of this article is not to debate the merits of any one
political ideology. The point is to remind the Armenian citizen,
human rights activists and a number of international organizations
(both within and without Armenia) that freedom should not equal
anarchy. Within freedom there are still rules.

Armenia is in the process of re-evaluating the `Law on Freedom of
Conscience and Religious Organizations’. It was originally adopted in
1991, and has since been revised twice – in 1997 and 2001. This
newest attempt to revisit the law has within it components of
housekeeping (elimination of preamble, etc.) and clarification
(definition of proselytism). If successful, it will also be the first
time the law has been amended since the constitutional referendum of
2005 and the adoption of the law regulating the relationship between
the Republic of Armenia and the Armenian Church, in 2007.

There have been numerous misconceptions and incorrect assertions made
about this law in the media. This is an attempt to clarify and
correct them.

First, it should be stated that the proposed changes to the law are at
the initiative of the RA National Assembly (parliament) and not at the
behest of the Armenian Church.

Second, the increase in the minimum number of adherents from 200 to
1000 for a religious organization, is for the entire country; and not
as it has been erroneously reported, per congregation, parish, village
or community. Additionally, ethnic minorities (Russians, Jews, etc.)
are exempt even from this requirement. Nevertheless, 1000 people is
not an unreasonable threshold to meet in a population of 3.2 million
citizens.

Third, in Armenian the word that appears in the law, `Hogevorsutiun’
(Ñá-»íá&# xF1;ëáõÃÛáõ&#xD D;) is more than simply the English definition of
proselytism. It literally translates as `soul-hunting’. The 2001
amendments to the law already prohibited soul-hunting, but the
criminal code had no accommodations or penalties for the crime. The
proposed 2009 amendment clearly defines the crime and outlines maximum
penalties. And the penalties are prescribed only in cases of clear
harassment, abuse and coercive practices. Soul-hunting is defined in
the law as the act of `utilizing material (financial) enticements,
physical pressure, threats and coercion in spreading the message of a
religious organization to adherents of other faiths or to those who
adhere to no faith’. This definition of proselytism is taken directly
from the World Council of Churches condemnation of the act at its
Third Assembly in New Delhi in 1961, when it labeled proselytism as a
`corruption’ of faith and witness. Additionally, any religious
organization is prohibited by reaching its aims by `utilizing slander
or sowing distrust’ in another religious organization.

Fourth, the proposed changes mandate that any religious organization
that claims to be a Christian one, must `confess that Jesus Christ is
God and Savior, and (must) accept the Holy Trinity’. This does not
prevent non-Christian religious organizations from registering. It
simply means that if you claim to be Christian, then at a minimum, you
must confess that Christ is God.

Fifth, the proposed changes clearly state that all citizens of the
Republic of Armenia are equal in the eyes of the law `regardless of
their attitude toward religion or their religious affiliation’. No
discrimination or differentiation is permissible due to religious
denomination or faith, or lack thereof.

Sixth, in response to claims that the law explicitly or implicitly
supports the national church, the answer is, `of course it does’. The
Armenian Church has been the national church for more than 1,700
years. It is not merely a religious organization – it is the very
nation itself. The Armenian Church transcends even the state, in that
it has continually existed and endured in times when the state has
not.

Nevertheless, the Armenian Church, even though it is recognized as the
national church and is overwhelmingly the dominant church in Armenia,
is still subject to the same law and penalties prescribed therein.
Therefore, the Armenian Church cannot utilize any tactics or methods
that have been denied to other religious organizations.

In Armenia today, as has been true for the nearly two decades of
independence, every individual is free to choose any church, any faith
or even to choose to abstain from faith. However, if the proposed
changes to the law are enacted, then religious organizations will at
last, be limited to the extent that the rights of the organization may
not infringe on the rights of the individual. The individual outranks
the collective.

There is a wide chasm that separates the innocent and perhaps noble
`sharing of one’s faith’ from abuse and improper behavior. The
citizen has just as much right to be protected from overzealous
proselytizers as the proselytizer does to preach his message. This
law attempts to insure that no one’s civil rights – neither the
proselytizer’s nor the citizen’s – are violated.

Rev. Fr. Ktrij Devejian is Foreign Press Secretary of the
Catholicosate of All Armenians and the Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin

TASHNAQ IS SILENT AS SUPPORTERS SPECULATE
by Matt Nash

NowLebanon
icleDetails.aspx?ID=84737
March 24 2009
Lebanon

NOW asks party faithful which side it will choose

MP Michel Murr (R) announced he would ally with March 14 in the
Metn. The Armenian community generally votes with Murr, but the
largest Armenian political party has yet to announce with whom they
will ally in the June 7 polls. (AFP) The most dominant political
party among Lebanon’s Armenian community, the Tashnaq, has not yet
announced with which political coalition it will ally with in the
upcoming parliamentary elections. The community gets six seats in
Lebanon’s parliament (four in Beirut, one in the Metn and one in
Zahle), and Armenian votes were decisive in the 2007 by-election in
the Metn. That year the Free Patriotic Movement candidate Camille
Khoury beat Kataeb party leader Amin Gemayel by a few hundred votes
to fill the seat of former MP Pierre Gemayel, who was assassinated in
November 2006. Tashnaq traditionally allies with political heavyweight
Michel al-Murr, who announced he will be allying with March 14 this
election year. NOW Lebanon went to Bourj Hammoud, an almost exclusively
Armenian suburb of Beirut, to see what people thought of Tashnaq’s
delay and Murr’s announcement.

Andre, 37, Bourj Hammoud They are now with [FPM leader] Michel Aoun
because the past few years they’ve been allied with Michel al-Murr, and
now he’s alone so they are confused between him and Michel Aoun. But
they are probably all with Michel Aoun more than Michel al-Murr,
but they can’t leave Murr all together. They’re with both of them,
but I’m not sure how they can do it.

Do you think the party will split if Murr stays allied with March 14?

No, no, no. They party is all together. For example, I don’t like
Michel Aoun, but I am with the Tashnaq and I respect their opinion. But
I don’t like Aoun.

Will you vote with Tashnaq if they ally with Aoun?

I don’t know. I don’t know.

Colandaria, 55, Achrafieh Right now they are an opposition
party. They’ll ally with General Michel Aoun. Maybe there are
discussions between the Tashnaq and the Hariri parties [March 14],
I don’t know. Maybe they will reach a compromise on something. I
don’t know. They only had problems with the Hariri parties in the 2000
elections. Always the Armenians are their own parliamentary bloc. And
during the 2000 elections, Hariri didn’t give them anything. He didn’t
want an Armenian bloc [to have independence.] He wanted them to follow
him alone. He said, "You are either with me or against me." So Tashnaq
went alone in the elections and only got two deputies [of the six seats
reserved for Armenians.] Now they are trying to have all six deputies
so that there is an Armenian bloc. We are Armenians. We are neutral. So
now they are trying to negotiate this. If they achieve some agreement
with Hariri, maybe they will side with [March 14]. If not, no.

Do you think they’ll ultimately side with Murr and go along with
March 14?

Now the Tashnaq says we are with Michel Aoun. But the Armenians have
been with Murr for over 40 years. So they might say, "Ok, Murr is
not with us now so we will give votes just for him, not all of his
allies," which would mean voting March 14 in the Metn but voting
March 8 everywhere else.

Partick, 66, Oukar There are talks going on. There is no definite
answer. It takes time.

Do you think they’ll ultimately side with Murr and go along with
March 14?

Actually, I’m not interested in the political situation. Whatever will
happen, we will see. I cannot personally say that what Murr says will
lead to this, or that what someone else says will lead to that. The
Tashnaq party has a committee, and they are the actual deciders. I
cannot say what is going on.

Robain, 44, Bourj Hammoud They said they are with Michel Aoun. Of
course they’ve said this, [and] of course it’s a good thing.

So do you think they’ll split with Murr in the Metn?

No. We’re also with Michel Murr. All the lists will be with Michel
Aoun.

So the party will split its votes by siding with Murr and March 14
in the Metn and vote for March 8 everywhere else?

Tashnaq will vote with Aoun, and Murr will leave March 14.

Vacche, 35, Baabda Of course we will go with March 8 because there
is no place for Tashnaq in March 14.

So what does Murr’s alliance with March 14 mean for the Tashnaq?

Michel Murr is not with Michel Aoun now, but he will be before the
election. It will be the same relationship like in 2005. There is no
place in March 14 for Michel Murr.

EARTHQUAKE RESPONSE EXERCISES HELD IN ARMENIA

ARMENPRESS
March 24, 2009

YEREVAN, MARCH 24, ARMENPRESS: UN Armenian office and Armenian
Emergency Situations Ministry’s Rescue Service are carrying out
INSARAG exercises (response to earthquake, group consultation on
international search-rescue issues) March 24-26. Today early in the
morning the exercises were held in the Armenian province of Lori and
on March 26 will be wrapped up in Arzni gorge. At the exercises it
is expected to try all the elements of the international response
which will be necessary for a country suffered from a natural disaster.

Heads of disaster management establishments of 22 countries, rescue
teams, UN different agencies participate in the Armenian exercises.

In the opening of the event Armenian Emergency Minister Mher
Shahgeldyan said that disasters do not recognize borders and in the
whole world coordination mechanisms are being developed, institutions
are being established the issue of which is to coordinate the search,
rescue, prevention forces and opportunities of different countries.

"INSARAG organization has been established taking into consideration
the tragic experience of Spitak earthquake. From this viewpoint
the goal of the world organization is to coordinate the forces of
countries," the minister said.

UN permanent coordinator in Armenia Bushra Halepota said that it is
necessary to be ready to possible earthquake and have functioning
coordinating mechanisms, ensure immediate and effective search,
rescue activities as well as restoration works.

ADMINISTRATIVE RESOURCES SHOULD NOT BE USED

168 Zham
March 21 2009
Armenia

Parliament Speaker Hovik Abrahamyan received the US ambassador to
Armenia, Marie Yovanovitch, yesterday [20 March].

According to a press release issued by the parliament’s public
relations department, the US ambassador said: "If there is one
person who can eliminate the gap between political forces, improve
Armenian-Turkish relations and contribute to the peaceful settlement
of the Karabakh issue, it is President [Serzh] Sargsyan".

Yovanovitch said the US government believes the development of
democracy in Armenia is important. She pointed out in this context
that holding the upcoming May election of Yerevan’s city council in a
free and fair atmosphere is an important stage on the path to progress
in democracy. She expressed the hope that equal conditions will be
created for all participants, and that no administrative resources
will be used.

The parliament speaker also attached importance to holding a free and
fair election, saying that the parliament will do everything possible
to exclude violations and create equal opportunities for everyone,
the press release said.

At the meeting with Yovanovitch, Abrahamyan said he did not agree
with the assessment of Armenia in the US Department of State’s annual
report on human trafficking. In turn, the ambassador said that Armenia
is in the list’s second group of countries subject to control.

"Seeing positive work done by the Armenian authorities in this
direction, the ambassador will try to assist Armenia on the issue
of getting out of the control group," press the release of the
parliament’s information service said.

The Nagornyy Karabakh issue was also discussed. Abrahamyan attached
importance to the peaceful settlement of the issue in the framework of
the OSCE Minsk Group. Yovanovitch said the US position on the issue
has not changed: "The principles of non-use of force, territorial
integrity and the right to self-determination should be used".

ACBA-CREDIT AGRICOLE BANK DIRECTOR GENERAL TO BE HONORED WITH FRENCH ORDER OF MERIT

PanARMENIAN.Net
25.03.2009 10:39 GMT+04:00

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ ACBA-Credit Agricole Bank Director General Stepan
Gishyan will to be honored with French Order of Merit.

The awarding ceremony will take place in French Embassy in Yerevan
on March 26, the embassy’s press office reported.

NO US SECRETARY OF STATE HAD EVER RISKED CRITICIZING HUMAN RIGHTS REPORT
Karine Ter-Sahakyan

PanARMENIAN.Net
21.03.2009 GMT+04:00

Washington is so eager to get rid of the "painful heritage" of the Bush
Administration that she often makes statements against her own self.

Probably, no one could expect Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to
introduce changes in country’s foreign policy, as the foreign policy
of any country is a more conservative segment of management. Moreover,
no one could expect so slighting, if not to say more, attitude towards
the work done by one’s own department. Everything began with the
notorious annual State Department Report on Human Rights. Everybody
knows that it has always been politically booked and biased, but
no US Secretary of State had ever risked criticizing the Report,
especially doing it not in Washington but on a trip abroad.

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ New Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton
undercuts the State Department’s own human rights reporting, The
Washington Post writes. According to the author of the article "Some
Friends", Clinton declared in China that "Violations of human rights
in China can’t interfere with economic, security or environmental
matters".

The new Secretary of State delivered a similar shock in Turkey and
Egypt, the two US key allies in the region. "State Department issues
these reports on every country and we hope that it will be taken in the
spirit in which it is offered, that we all have room for improvement,"
Clinton said in an interview to al-Arabiya satellite network.

As for the state of human rights protection in Turkey, the US Secretary
of State said: "Senior government officials strongly criticize the
press and media business figures". "Overall, we think that Turkey has
made tremendous progress in freedom of speech and freedom of religion
and human rights, and we’re proud of that," noted Clinton in Ankara.

In fact, as the State Department has documented, Turkey is retreating
on freedom of speech. In Egypt, the human rights situation also
is getting worse rather than better. "By minimizing those facts,
Ms. Clinton is doing a disservice to her own department and sending
a message to rulers around the world that their abuses won’t be taken
seriously by this U.S. administration," The Washington Post reports.

On the whole, Hillary Clinton is right: the Human Rights Report
has long ceased to be objective, especially since it is written up
in participation with the Human Rights Watch, organization that,
to put it mildly, perceives the reality inadequately, especially in
post-Soviet territory. Not pretending on a distinct opinion in this
matter, we have to admit that in majority of cases organizations of
protecting human rights are engaged in bringing accusations against
the states, which, in their opinion, are Â"non-democraticÂ". Examples
are not few: South Caucasus states, Russia, China. For some reason
these reports almost never include names of EU member states and the
USA. But these are all rhetoric questions that do not refer to the
essence of the issue. And the essence is that Washington is so eager
to get rid of the Â"painful heritageÂ" of the Bush Administration
that she often makes statements against her own self.

By the way, Barack Obama too has decided to contribute his mite in
changing the priorities of his foreign policy. For the first time the
US President has congratulated the Iranians on Nowruz. Of course,
the fact itself deserves respect, only Obama will have to explain
his gesture of good will to those Americans, who were taken hostage
in Tehran in 1979 and survived by a hair’s breadth …

But politics operates with categories, a bit far from morals. It is
difficult to say whether such policy is beneficial for the country
or not. At least, the United States has always been famous for its
pragmatism and pursuance of personal interests, naturally, offering
it to the world in Â"democraticÂ" wrapping.

And lastly, US Secretary of State has invited President of the "Turkish
Republic of North Cyprus" Mehmet Ali Talat to visit Washington. In the
judgment of Cyprus Action Network of America (CANA) the invitation
issued to Talat may be wrongly assessed as recognition of Cyprus’
occupation and existence of the "Turkish Republic of North Cyprus". In
the words of American diplomat of Greek origin Gregory Marquis,
Â"isolationÂ" of Turk Cypriots is the result of occupation of the
northern part of the island by Turkey. Hardly can the US Secretary of
State be ignorant of the Cyprian problem. We’ll make bold to assume
that all the curtseys are dropped before Turkey as a preparation for
Barack Obama to utter the word ‘genocide’ in his annual speech of April
24. And here nolens volens we recall the words of Arthur Sasounian:
"Armenians should not require every newly-formed Congress recognize
what has already been recognized twice. Congress has already passed
two resolutions on the Armenian Genocide recognition, one in 1975,
the other in 1984. The Armenian nation should not be constantly asking
American presidents to recognize the Genocide." As for Turkey, it is
not so irritated at just another resolution on the Armenian Genocide,
as at its constant repetition for more than 30 years…