INTERVIEW: TURKISH PRESIDENT ABDULLAH GUL
By Ben Lando
Middle East Times
Thursday, October 23, 2008
Egypt
ANKARA, Turkey, Oct. 22 (UPI) — Turkey is playing a major role in
geopolitics side by side with the United States, President Abdullah
Gul insisted as he took questions from visiting American journalists,
bloggers and think-tankers.
Gul painted Turkey as a mediator of sorts. It’s creating a space
to end the territorial dispute between Azerbaijan and Armenia —
at the same time Turkey and Armenia attempt to move past historical
allegations of genocide. Gul recently became the first Turkish leader
to visit Armenia.
Caucasian calm amid a resurgent Russia is a boon for the United
States. Gul reaffirmed U.S. ties but urged the next president to
get "objective" briefings on Turkey — referring to pressure that
Washington takes a stand on the genocide claim.
With the small group of Americans in a conference room in the Turkish
president’s administrative offices, Gul tried to calm reports of
domestic unrest as well. Turkey has been militantly secular since
throwing back the Ottoman Empire. But a recent move to allow women to
wear religious headscarves in the university prompted sharp discussion
in the streets on the future of the separation of religion and the
Turkish state.
Gul also played down the history of Turkey’s isolation of its Kurdish
population from economic progress and liberty, and played up the recent
attempts at integrating Turkish Kurds into society and politics. He was
quick to separate the "Kurdish question" from the "PKK question." The
Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or PKK, is labeled a terrorist group by
Turkey, the United States, Europe and others. It attacked a southeast
Turkey command post earlier this month, killing or wounding dozens.
As Turkey responded again by bombing the mountains of northern Iraq,
where the PKK has camps, Gul said Turkey doesn’t want to suppress
its southern neighbor.
He said Kurdish leaders such as Jalal Talabani, now Iraq’s president,
and Massoud and Nechirvan Barzani, president and prime minister of
the Kurdistan Regional Government of Iraq, respectively, have been
welcomed into Turkey since the times of Saddam Hussein.
Though Turkey criticizes the national and regional governments in
Iraq for not doing enough to prevent PKK attacks, Gul said diplomatic
talks continue. The following day Turkey sent a delegation to Baghdad
to meet with national and regional leadership in Iraq.
Q: I would like to follow up on a couple of the points you made. Turkey
as a mediator: Can you talk a little bit more about mediating with
Armenia? Do you expect that Turkey will help mediate Armenian pullback
from Azeri territory outside of Nagorno-Karabakh? Can Turkey help
resolve this whole problem in the Caucasus? And just one other question
about mediation: Iraq. You didn’t speak too much about Iraq. Can Turkey
help the United States in finding a formula by which the United States
can pull back without Iraq collapsing again?
Gul: Of course, we want to see a solution come about the problems
between Armenia and Azerbaijan. We sincerely want this, and we are
ready to contribute to bring about a solution. This issue, when I was
in Yerevan, it was not introduced by me. … It was introduced by
President (Serzh) Sargsyan himself when we were talking. I said at
the outset that any problems in the Caucasus does not just affect the
two countries directly involved, I said to him it affects everyone
in the Caucasus, and I gave him the recent example of conflict
between Russia and Georgia and I said it’s affecting us all. And
I said to him I believe that as an eruption of a problem affects
us negatively, I believe that solving any problem in the Caucasus
affects us positively. I should say that after my visit there
things have progressed quite significantly. Important work has been
done. After visiting Armenia I then went on to Azerbaijan a couple
days later and had important contacts there with my … counterpart,
and after that the three foreign ministers actually recently met in
New York, so there’s significant progress being made. … You will
notice there are important energy pipelines between Azerbaijan and
Turkey. Pipelines that transfer oil but also pipelines that transport
gas, and now we are building a very important railway linking us. In
all of the ceremonies I’ve always made it clear, gave the message,
if you will, in my addresses that once the problems between us are
solved, these projects are open to Armenia as well.
Now turning to Iraq: I may not have mentioned Iraq to a significant
extent in my introductory remarks, but you should know that we did
a great deal of work on Iraq. We did a great deal of work before the
war, during the war and after the war. … One of the most important
things that we did do, we contributed greatly to the political process
in Iraq after the war. As you know, the Sunnis had initially decided
to not take part in the political process in Iraq. I personally had
them come to Istanbul, all the Sunni groups, even the most radical
Sunni groups, I had them come to Istanbul on numerous occasions,
we had a great number of meetings, we worked very hard to convince
them to take part in the political process in Iraq after the war,
and we succeeded in this. In fact, (U.S. Ambassador to the United
Nations Zalmay) Khalilzad, (Iraqi Sunni leader Tariq al-)Hashimi and
myself, we declared together in Istanbul that the Sunnis had decided
to take part in the political process. I told the Sunnis while trying
to convince them … that if they did not take part in the political
process in Iraq that is evolving now after the war, I told them the
rich Sunnis will leave the country and the remaining Sunnis will
be declared as terrorists. I told them this very clearly. I’m very
happy to say that we did succeed to convince them, they have joined
the political process and they are one of the most important groups
in Iraq today. President Bush, Ms. (Secretary of State Condoleezza)
Rice and the entire State Department knows what we’ve done for various
groups. We invited all the Iraqi politicians, be they Kurdish,
be they Arab, be they Shia, be they Sunni, we invited them all to
Turkey, we hosted them here, … we hosted them all and had them
undergo political training, exercises and education, if you will,
they saw how our democracy works, how political parties are formed,
how political parties and democracy function. I personally must have
spent hours and hours talking to all of the Iraqi leaders individually.
Also economically, we continuously aid Iraq. We never interrupted
this aid at any point. Approximately 4,000 trailers of larger rigs
of aid and materials are transported into Iraq from Turkey every day
today. These go to address the most important needs of the Iraqi people
but also the coalition forces in Iraq. Our embassy in Baghdad, this
embassy was never closed, not at any point, not before, not during,
not after the war. This embassy always remained open. Our embassy
was bombed — I should say here that our embassy was one of the very
few that remained open in Baghdad — our embassy was bombed, our
ambassador was almost killed on a number of occasions, and it was only
the armored car that saved his life from this assassination attempt,
and at no point did we close our embassy, our embassy remained open,
our flag remains hoisted and certainly during the worst time, when very
few embassies are open in Baghdad and our embassy was open, there was
no Arab embassies open, our embassy was open. And there is something
that most people do not know, and that is that after the United
States, Turkey is the country that has sacrificed most of its lives
in Iraq. Over 150 of our truck drivers were (inaudible, but he said
they were killed), and not at any point did we consider interrupting
the flow of the humanitarian needs that the Iraqi people have.
Many tend to think that Turkey has some sort of aim of suppressing
northern Iraq. That is not the case. If we desired to do so, we could
do so easily. Just halting supplies that are carried by those 4,000
trucks daily will be enough, just closing our borders to Iraq … that
would work. But that is not what we intend to do, that is not what
we want to do. Quite the contrary, we aid them in many ways. Just
one example would be that we actually supply northern Iraq with 25
percent of its electricity. And beyond that, when you go there, if
you see a vibrant economy, you have to understand that this is in
great part to Turkish companies that are there, and to the Turkish
… businessmen that are doing business and are helping there.
Q: You’ve pointed out the extraordinary growth in the American-Turkish
agenda. There’s so much more to talk about than there’s ever been,
certainly in my experience of over 20 years. First question: If
you were meeting the next (U.S.) president tomorrow, what would
you say had to be done in Turkish-American relations, what would
you focus on, what would you tell him is most necessary? My second
question relates to Turkey internally, because what happens to Turkey
internally is very important in terms of Turkey’s role in the world,
its effectiveness. You have the only non-political position in Turkey,
as president. Everybody else has a political affiliation, who they work
for. And Turkey has, at least I think everybody will agree, a heavily
polarized political situation, in which the heavy polarization makes
it difficult to solve critical problems. I don’t mean to say you will
not solve them, but it makes it difficult. How can you reduce this
polarity, how can it be changed, so instead of arguing at the end of
the day about what appears in newspapers, that this gulf in Turkish
life is reduced?
Gul: If I were to meet the (U.S.) president, I would tell
him to understand the value and the importance of Turkey
objectively. Understand it without the interference and objection of
certain lobbies, get good briefings on this issue, I would tell him
that. I would also tell him that Turkey and the United States and
the work we do is very important for the region, for stability in
the region but also stability in the world. I would say that we’ve
done good things together so far, and I would say let’s continue to
work together, let’s continue to bring about peace and stability,
let’s do so in a spirit of trust, in a spirit of mutual respect. Again
I’d tell him to get good briefings on the importance of Turkey. You
will notice, as well, that Turkey is a country that is going after
its transformation. And this is a transformation that is breaking
very well-established goals in our country. This transformation is
primarily about more democracy; it’s about keeping it and strengthening
our democracy in our country. In this context there is a very vibrant
discussion that is ongoing in Turkey, and some, perhaps because they
fear the loss of their prior status, are engaged in this vibrant
discussion. And some are engaged in this vibrant discussion because
they are genuinely concerned for the future. … Looked at from abroad,
I understand it might be the case where the perception is there is
a far divide within the country, I understand that. But I also think
that this is not so. I do disagree. Let’s look at some examples. For
example, one of the points that was brought up as the divide in Turkey
is the Kurdish question. If you look at Turkish history and see how
things really are and see our positions, this sharp divide never
existed between Turks and Kurds and doesn’t exist today, keeping the
PKK out, they’re terrorists. Turning to another one, the discussion
that surrounds secularism in the country. In the official circles,
this is, of course, a very heated and long-debated issue. But if you
turn to look at what’s transpiring on the streets, between family and
between friends, all coexist with the issue of the headscarf. Those
that wear a headscarf, those that don’t, are in the same families,
they walk hand in hand, are friends, so there is no real sharp divide
or polarization, if you will, on this issue in society, but on the
cultural front there is, because this is made to be material for
politics. … Certain professors who are in the position of being
administrators in universities, they might have an issue with the
headscarf on one side or the other side. But the students that are in
the classes in those universities, be it the ones wearing a headscarf
or wish to wear a headscarf or ones that are wearing a miniskirt,
these female students have no issue, they don’t have any issues with
the positions on this topic nor do they have an issue with each other,
and you’ll see them hand in hand outside of the school cafeteria
or hamburger store, sharing their food and giving each other their
sandwiches. So for these students there’s nothing polarizing.
Q: A couple of questions getting back to northern Iraq and the PKK
issue: What specifically do you want from the Iraqi government,
from the northern regional government, from the United States, in
this area? What is it that Turkey is asking for specifically? And
also can you confirm that there have been talks between Turkey and
the northern regional government and that a representative from the
northern regional government will be coming to Turkey for talks?
Gul: Here’s something I would like to stress: Today in Turkey there
is no justification for terror. If you look just into this room,
the Turkish citizens who are sitting here with you, there might be
some that are of Kurdish origin here, this is not known, this is
not something that we dwell on, there is no division, there’s no
labeling of who is of what ethnic origin in Turkey, be it Kurdish
or other. That is the way it is in Turkey, that’s the way it’s
always been. Nobody defines themselves or is excluded according
to their ethnic origin. And also, no matter what ethnic origin —
specifically from the president to the speaker of the Parliament to
the prime minister, indeed all these high posts were held by people
and are still held by people who define themselves to be of Kurdish
origin. Today in our Parliament, we have about 150 parliamentarians who
are known and label themselves to be of Kurdish origin. And also there
are many persons who are of Kurdish origin who also head ministries
in this government today. Now getting back to your initial statement,
the real problem that we had on this issue, as well as other issues,
is one where we had a serious lack of democracy, and this reflected on
this issue and other issues in our country. And that is something that
we have addressed. Certainly the Kurdish issue is not … because of
a more racist outlook on the issue, but one where there wasn’t enough
democracy. Today, you can have books printed in Kurdish, you can have
televisions that broadcast in Kurdish, you can have billboards posted
in Kurdish, you can have newspapers that are published in Kurdish,
and if you wish you can have a school that educates in Kurdish. Now
all of this was forbidden. Of course, the Kurdish issue and terror,
we divide and separate these when we’re talking.
Now on Iraq: Of course, there’s a significant Kurdish population
there. But there is something I wish to ask if you knew this or
not: During the time of Saddam and also during the war, Mr. (Jalal)
Talabani, (Massoud) Barzani, Nechirvan (Barzani), they all traveled
on Turkish diplomatic passports. They used these passports that
we gave them to go anywhere in the world, to attend conferences in
Washington, D.C. … And even today as we speak, both political parties
of Talabani and Barzani have permanent offices and representation in
Turkey and representatives who work in their offices in Turkey. And
these political parties that are in Turkey are not new; they were here
before the war and were here after the war. Also after the war, before
Talabani was elected president, Mr. Talabani, Mr. Barzani, Nechirvan,
they all traveled to Turkey and we had intensive meetings with them
here, and our foreign minister had meetings with them here, and also
our prime minister had meetings with them. There is something that
I should stress is our people are angry and they are angry because
PKK terrorists, just because they’re ethnically Kurdish, are given
camps and the opportunity to be harbored in northern Iraq, simply
because they’re Kurdish. These terrorists then from these camps and
all the opportunities afforded to them in northern Iraq, stage attacks
against another country, in this case Turkey. This sort of behavior
is angering us. When I talked to President Bush in our meetings, I
asked him how would you feel if there were terrorist camps that were
allowed to exist on the Mexican side of your border with Mexico, how
would you feel if these camps were allowed to exist there and then the
terrorists in those camps were allowed to stage attacks inside United
States territory from these camps. Now we take these concerns to the
Iraqis and the government in northern Iraq. We gave them our concerns,
and we see now that they’re trying to understand our concerns and we’re
pleased to see that they understand our concerns. It’s important that
we communicate to them that there are problems, there are problems that
are arising from their region and there’s no problem in doing this,
there’s no problem telling them that if they don’t have the necessary
force, necessary organization to deal with these problems in their
territories, we are ready to help them, to provide the necessary
assistance, there’s no problem discussing it here. Frankly, what
is transpiring now with these attacks is something that poisons the
potential for so much good that Turkey can do in northern Iraq. … And
I do believe that the PKK stepping up their attacks now on Turkish
territory is something that is directly poisoning relations between
us so we can’t take these relations any further."