Public Television of Armenia
Oct 15 2009
Armenian premier says "no alternative" to opening Turkish border
Armenian Prime Minister Tigran Sargsyan has talked in detail on the
economic benefits of opening the Turkish border, moral and
psychological problems in restoring neighbourly relations with Turkey,
and Armenia’s plans to diversify its transport routes via Iran,
Georgia and Turkey in an interview with political commentators of four
leading Armenian TV channels. The following are excerpts from
Sargsyan’s interview as broadcast on state-owned Armenian Public TV on
15 October; subheadings have been inserted editorially:
[Armenian Prime Minister Tigran Sargsyan] I would like to welcome
representatives of leading Armenian TV companies in my office and I
will gladly answer your questions.
[Nver Mnatsakanyan, a political commentator of private Shant TV] We
are also glad that you are hosting us, and if I am not mistaken this
is your first public reaction to this global issue. We will speak
about normalization, improvement of Armenian-Turkish relations, about
the [Armenian-Turkish] protocols. However, the latest event was
yesterday’s [14 October] football match which we lost with the score
2:0 [in Bursa, Turkey] and we had lost the first leg of the same game
with the same score in Yerevan. It would be bad if we lose in the
diplomatic contest. Defeat in football is tolerable.
[Sargsyan] I have commented on this issue publicly several times. In
particular, in parliament, MPs raised numerous issues pertaining to
Armenian-Turkish relations. My position in this regard was, of course,
clear and understandable for MPs. In some cases, it was unacceptable
for some MPs, but anyway, my position is very clear.
[Mnatsakanyan] Can you predict a few future steps?
[Sargsyan] Naturally.
[Mnatsakanyan] Where will we get to in the diplomatic competition?
[Sargsyan] Naturally, we should be ready for different scenarios and
the president of the republic gave such an assignment long ago, and
all our agencies submitted relevant documents to me in which they
presented there forecasts, scenarios, possible scenarios of
development of Armenian-Turkish relations.
[Passage omitted: Sargsyan repeats that the cabinet has such scenarios]
[Mnatsakanyan] So, the main question is, we call it football diplomacy
or some other diplomacy, the two countries are negotiating and what is
on the negotiating table? There is very little information on this. I
do not know if this happened due to objective reasons or not. That is
what is the price the two countries are struggling for or they will
pay, both countries, let’s consider it on both ends. There are things
on the negotiating table about which, about the subtext of which there
is little information. What does the Armenian side pay, what does the
Turkish side receive, and vice versa, what does the Turkish side pay
and what does the Armenian side receive?
Armenia interested in Turkey becoming EU member
[Sargsyan] Well, the initiative of the president of the republic was
aimed at improving Armenian-Turkish relations and everyone assessed
this initiative as historical because Armenian-Turkish relations have
a long history, bitter history and one needs to have a political will,
confidence, bravery to put forward such an initiative. The president
of the republic expressed this will and this has a clear reason. The
Republic of Armenia is interested in improving its relations with
Turkey.
In the contemporary world, under the current policy, Turkey is also
interested in improving its relations with Armenia. From this point of
view, the interests of our two states coincide. By improving relations
with Turkey, we are expanding opportunities for our economic,
political development, and Turkey also reaches the same goal. By
improving relations with Armenia, it makes a step in the course of its
reforms and introduces itself to the world as a state which has a
clear policy to implement political, economic reforms and to become a
fully-fledged member of the European Union.
I would like to clearly formulate my idea: our policy cannot be
anti-Turkish, our policy should be pro-Armenian. What does it mean? At
a particular stage, the interests of Armenia and Turkey may coincide,
and if these interests coincide we are obliged to take steps, because
our state, our citizens will benefit. And the brave step of our
president was conditioned by this very circumstance. I can give you
the example of EU membership which Turkey has set itself as a goal.
Turkey is not yet ready to become a member of the EU. EU experts
believe that it has fulfilled only 30 per cent of its commitments. But
we are interested in it fulfilling the remaining 70 per cent of its
commitments because given this, we will have a neighbouring EU member
country.
[Mnatsakanyan] So, Mr Prime Minister, one should understand that the
word is about a global process which Armenia is only part of. You
mentioned the EU, I would add Russia, the USA. There may be an
impression that these actions, this political process is being carried
out in the context of Russian-US, Russian-Turkish, US-Turkish
relations rather than the context of Armenian-Turkish relations. Is
that true?
[Sargsyan] This only shows that that the president of the republic
made this step after having it prepared well. That is, consultations
had been held both with our strategic partner Russia, as well as the
EU, the USA, and individual European states. It is extremely important
that at present, the interests of global players coincide in this
regard. Everyone is interested in the improvement of Armenian-Turkish
relations because this has qualitatively improved the situation in the
region, which meets the interests of those global players.
[Shavarsh Gevorgyan, political commentator of the state-owned Armenian
Second TV Channel] Mr Prime Minister, I would like to go into details
a bit and speak about the economic component. Please explain whether
it is the opening of the border that hinders de-facto existing
economic relations between the two countries, and whether trade that
exists between the two countries or demand for it is not satisfactory
without the opening of the border?
Moral-psychological and cultural-psychological aspects of relations with Turkey
[Sargsyan] Of course, it is not only opening the border,
Armenian-Turkish relations are a much more complex issue. First, they
are about moral-psychological and cultural-psychological relations,
where we have complexes. We, the Armenians, have complexes and the
Turks have complexes. These complexes are conditioned by objective
circumstances and by the factor of the genocide in the first place. It
is very difficult to depart from this aspect when the word is about
improving Armenian-Turkish relations.
It is very difficult and we all feel and bear this burden upon us,
because the feeling of justice lies deep inside the Armenian people.
When we know that Turkey denies this fact [genocide], naturally this
creates serious complexes, which also hinders the normalization of
relations in the economic, political, diplomatic and other spheres.
This is the most important issue. What is our aim in this
moral-physiological, cultural-psychological aspect? To achieve
justice. The agenda is formulated in the following way – the only way
to achieve justice is that not different states across the world
should recognize the genocide but Turkey itself should do so. This is
a separate aspect. But we together with you in the 21st century are
obliged to think not only about this, but also about the political
aspect because we are an independent state, we have obligations before
three million of our population and we are obliged to carry out a
reasonable policy which will lead us to the strengthening of our state
and ensuring the well-being of our citizens.
We also have problems in this sphere. The problem is the following –
improvement of our relations with our neighbours – Azerbaijan and
Turkey – in the first place will become a number one issue on the
political agenda. It is understandable that if we put forward a bold
initiative in the political field of starting dialogue with Turkey,
improve our relations with Turkey, because this meets the interests of
our state, this becomes a very tangible and political issue. If we are
successful in the political field, this would contribute to our
success also in the moral-psychological and cultural-psychological
fields. Those are, of course, interrelated issues, but each field has
its own agenda and its goals.
Improvement of political relations to contribute to economic progress
The third field is what you stressed – economic relations. Of course,
it is obvious to both experts and businessmen that the opening of the
border is beneficial both for Armenia and Turkey. Why is it
beneficial? Because closed borders are nonsense in the contemporary
world. Because closed borders hinder regular economic processes in the
contemporary world. It is understandable that the states which apply
such a mode [blockade], strike a blow to their own economy in the
first place. Because regular processes should not be stopped. Both
Turkey and Armenia realize this well.
I would like to say that this is beneficial not only for Armenia but
also for Turkey to have normal economic relations with its neighbour,
open borders, because both Turkey and the Republic of Armenia have
adopted a strategy of creating a market economy. This means that if
there are obstacles, these obstacles should be removed. Both Turkey
and Armenia have assumed such an obligation. We should eliminate all
obstacles which prevent the market economy from developing in a
normal, regular way. As you noticed, we are carrying out these reforms
gradually. Turkey, too, is carrying out similar reforms, and if we
together with you cast a glance at the future, there is no alternative
to opening the borders. The borders will be opened sooner or later. We
want this to take place today, because improvement of our relations
with Turkey in the political sphere will contribute to a fair
settlement to the Karabakh issue and not vice versa as claimed by our
opponents.
[Gevorgyan] How quickly or during what period will the opening the
border impact our economy, how will this manifest itself and how will
this affect Armenian citizens?
[Sargsyan] I would divide your question into two parts. The first one
refers to the states, to the governments – how quickly will they
create appropriate conditions, how quickly will a customs checkpoint
start working, will the railway start operating? To that end, we will
approve relevant legal documents, will secure those with laws, and our
Turkish partner should also carry out a similar process. That is they
should also create relevant conditions, while coordinating this with
us. This is the first thing. That is the states should take clear
measures and the commission which is to be created according to the
protocols, should solve these very issues.
[Passage omitted: Sargsyan continues describing joint efforts]
And the second part – to what extent is our private sector ready for
bilateral relations? This will be conditioned by how quickly we ensure
these conditions for them, at what speed their contacts will take
place. Work is already under way in this regard. I would like to
inform our audience that our businessmen started this work long before
the governments.
[Passage omitted: prime minister says the Union of Armenian
Businessmen has contacts with Turkish businessmen]
[Sargsyan] I should mention that our private sector is prepared in a
better way and expects that after these political issues are solved,
they will receive a full-fledged opportunity to carry out joint
business projects. I would like to reiterate that those are mutually
beneficial business projects
[Gevorgyan] For ordinary citizens –
[Sargsyan] Ordinary citizens will feel it for themselves when our
businessmen start using these opportunities, in particular the border
will open, and then they will already trade with Turkey not via
Georgia, but directly, which will decrease transaction costs by about
15 per cent. This means that our businessmen will receive
qualitatively new opportunities, because some branches which have no
prospects due to the closed borders will get a future if the border is
open.
Because reaching the Mediterranean coast by a railway changes the
structure of the economy and development of the economic structure
qualitatively. This creates qualitatively news opportunities for
investors, and at present we receive letters from Europe that people
are interested in such developments and if these developments take
place, there are companies which are ready to make investment into
infrastructure. Because they are specialized in this area and they see
that new markets and new opportunities open before them. Similarly new
markets, new opportunities open for our citizens, for our businessmen.
This will happen stage by stage.
Of course, one should not expect a miracle to happen immediately the
next day the border opens, that prices of goods will decrease all at
once, that the standard of living of our citizens will abruptly
improve, of course not. But this will create new opportunities for
business development and during the coming years our businessmen will
use this opportunity stage by stage, and our citizens can use this
opportunity.
[Passage omitted: Sargsyan says opening of the border will boost
diversification of the Armenian economy and help fight monopolies in
Armenia]
Armenia set to diversify transport routes
Apart from subjective factors that exist and which we recognize, apart
from the existing faults, which lead to monopoly problems, in
particular faults in tax and customs administration, in addition to
all this, there is also an objective obstacle. This is that we at
present have only one route for exports and imports of goods and this
route is extremely expensive. It is no secret that Georgia makes use
of this and the price of transportation of goods that we, our
business, our citizens pay, is unfairly high. We discussed this issue
on many occasions with our Georgian counterparts, we raised this issue
at all international organizations, that legislation should be
liberalized in Georgia and that serious control should be carried out,
including by international entities so that Georgia does not abuse its
monopolistic position. However, the fact is that it takes advantage of
the opportunity. Armenia’s small and medium-sized businesses have no
opportunity to use these expensive services.
[Passage omitted: repetition]
That is, the crisis has showed to everyone once again our weaknesses
and it apparently shows that opening the border is economically
beneficial for the Republic of Armenia.
[Artur Grigoryan, the state-owned Armenian Public TV] Mr Prime
Minister, you said on one occasion that shipment of Armenian goods
from any point of the world to [the Georgian port of] Poti costs about
the same as importing goods to Armenia through Georgia’s territory.
Judging by general moods, and you also say 10-20 per cent [opening of
borders and railway with Turkey will decrease transaction costs by
10-20 per cent], I understand that business people count well, at
least they can count their own money better than our government does,
now everyone may lose their mind and run to the Turkish border. And I
do not know how reliable the Turks are as partners, and one day it may
turn out that in case of some obstacle, Armenia may remain without a
certain type of goods or may face a problem with its supply. Don’t you
see a problem here? There is an English proverb – don’t put all your
eggs in one basket. So, now taking everything away from Georgia and
moving it to Turkey –
[Sargsyan] Of course, I agree with you. We are not going to do this.
Moreover, you know about an initiative of the president of the
republic, that we have already signed an agreement with Iran that we
are starting the construction of a railway which will make it possible
for us to also reach Iran by railway. That is we will have three
railway routes – to Iran, Georgia and Turkey – which means
diversification of our foreign economic ties, and naturally, Armenia
will benefit from this. The strategy assumed by the government
naturally supposes that we will carry out a balanced policy. Second, I
would like to point out that even at present we have relations with
Turkish businesses and our businessmen work with them, because goods
worth hundreds of millions of dollars are imported to Armenia per year
and are exported from Armenia to Turkey. However, the closed border
makes these relations expensive, and makes them not beneficial in many
spheres. It is understandable that Georgia benefits from this.
[Passage omitted: Sargsyan reiterates that both Turkish and Armenian
businessmen will benefit from opening the borders]
[Grigoryan] I am also interested in the fate of the projects mentioned
by you – in my view, the [Armenia-Iran] railway project would have
been more appealing and beneficial to Iran if the [Armenia-Turkey]
route was closed, because as far as I know, the Iran-Turkey link has
some difficulties connected with its geographic position, and Armenia
could have been a transit for Iranian cargo. Also in this regard,
won’t we have problems with the Iran railway? Also, we are planning
another major project – building a road from Akhaltsikhe to Batumi [in
Georgia]. So, will it remain appealing to businesses or the
governments that are going to spend hundreds of millions? I think our
government [share is] 462m [as heard]. Is that correct? And the rest
was to come from loans.
[Sargsyan] This is a very important issue. I think that today it does
not lose its advantages. Both Iran, Turkey, Armenia and Georgia are
interested in stable economic relations provided that countries do not
abuse their monopolistic position in regard of a second or third
state. Its best guarantee is diversification of risks. When we have
railway links with Iran, Turkey and Georgia, this means that everyone
is confident that no factor will become a factor of political
speculations and that no country will use this factor to exert
political pressure. The construction of the railway will create an
atmosphere of common confidence too, which is very important in our
region at present, where there are conflicting political interests.
[Passage omitted: Sargsyan says that latest international developments
point to a favourable environment for long-term business investment
and that creating an atmosphere of trust meets the interests of all
nations; repetition on economic benefits of opening the Turkish
border]
[Mnatsakanyan] I would like to ask an opposite question – no-one has
calculated the consequences of not opening the border, both political
and economic. That is if we go through that path, if we cover part of
it, but we do not reach our goal, what will be the consequence of
this?
[Sargsyan] Of course, we should be also ready for the scenario when
the border will not open and we will work in a situation in which we
are today. We have developed a strategy for this purpose. This
strategy supposes that we should significantly improve the quality of
the work of our infrastructure in order to decrease transaction costs.
This strategy foresees that we should construct the railway together
with Iran, because this anyway means an opportunity of
diversification. This means that we must make serious investment in
spheres which supposedly produce minimal income compared with the
construction of the railway, the border. These spheres are mainly
modern, science intensive branches, where the major resource is human
resources and intellectual resources.
[Passage omitted: Sargsyan says IT has been one of the priorities in
Armenia’s economic strategy over the past 10 years]
[exerpts translated from Armenian]