Ukrainian opposition figure calls for reconciliation between rival supporters
Ukrayina TV, Donetsk
29 Dec 04
Ukrainian opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko’s key ally Yuliya
Tymoshenko has made an unprecedented appearance in a live Q&A session
on Ukrayina TV, a regional channel based in Prime Minister Viktor
Yanukovych’s home town of Donetsk and owned by his allies. The channel
has been campaigning hard for Yanukovych and is bitterly critical of
Yushchenko. Tymoshenko, wearing an orange T-shirt of the local
football club Shakhtar Donetsk, reiterated throughout the programme
calls for reconciliation between supporters of rival presidential
candidates, and sought to refute the anti-Donetsk statements
attributed to her by her opponents. She defended her own and
Yushchenko’s record in government and opposition and pledged that the
Yushchenko administration would never discriminate against Donetsk or
the Russian-speaking regions. Tymoshenko attacked the administration
of President Leonid Kuchma and voiced her strong opposition to the
idea of federalizing Ukraine. She said the opposition should be given
wide powers in order to keep the government in check, and spoke about
the importance of freedom of speech. The following is an excerpt from
Tymoshenko’s Q&A on 29 December; subheadings inserted editorially:
[Presenter] Good evening, this is Ukrayina TV live. In the next hour
and a half, we’ll speak with one of the leaders of the orange
revolution, Yuliya Tymoshenko.
[Tymoshenko] Good evening.
[Presenter] We also welcome to our programme Ukrayina TV journalist
Iryna Markevych.
[Markevych] Good evening.
[Presenter] And of course, the main participants in our programme –
the TV viewers. Thanks to you, this meeting with Yuliya Tymoshenko was
made possible. We received a huge number of calls and there is much
interest in this programme, in the meeting with you. We received
several thousand calls over these two days, not only from Donetsk and
Luhansk but also from Mykolayiv, Ivano-Frankivsk, Crimea and many
other cities. Esteemed viewers, you can also call our studio during
the programme and ask your questions. The number is 312-55-35. Now I
hand over to Iryna Markevych.
Denies anti-Donetsk statements
[Markevych] We do have many letters, but first of all we would like to
read this letter signed by a whole neighbourhood. [Reads] Yuliya
Volodymyrivna, before beginning our dialogue, we propose that you
apologize to the people of Donbass for insults you made at the rally
in Kiev and during the orange putsch. It is true, there were many
inappropriate statements at various rallies and in parliament. As a
proof, here is a video clip.
[Passage omitted: Video clip of Tymoshenko saying in parliament that
progovernment MPs can hang themselves on their blue-and-white
scarves.]
[Markevych] Mrs Tymoshenko, what can you say to this after the second
round, are you ready to apologize?
[Tymoshenko, in Ukrainian] I would like to begin not with this clip
but with saying that the emotions always run high during the election
campaign. [Switches into Russian] I think there was much aggression
on both sides, many things that maybe should not be said by
politicians even during the election campaign. I would like to begin
with something different. I will comment on this clip later, no doubt
about it. But you know, when I was coming here, understanding that in
general Donetsk is a wonderful city with wonderful people, but because
of these political tricks it happened so that we are on different
sides of the barricades. When I was coming here, I was thinking about
what can unite us in the first moments after this election turmoil. I
thought you have your favourite football club Shakhtar in Donetsk, and
I am in Donetsk right now. I don’t know any people in Donetsk who are
not fans of Shakhtar. I remember very well when Shakhtar beat
Barcelona and people in Kiev’s Independence Square were just as happy
as when parliament made some political decisions. I thought that this
colour [orange, the colour of Shakhtar shirt and Yushchenko campaign]
unites us despite everything. Right now I am wearing this Shakhtar
shirt that I got as a present from a member of your club. It is your
colour and it is our colour and I want it to stop being the colour of
confrontation. I want peace. As for those statements, this was
probably the only harsh statement during the campaign, but you must
understand that it was addressed to MPs who shouted something
aggressive at me from their seats. You know, parliament is a big
family. We, the MPs, are different, but you know sometimes a mother
can shout at her child and say she would kill him if he does not get
school on time or kill him if he does not eat breakfast. This does not
mean the mother is going to kill her child. It is the same with those
emotions in parliament with orange or blue scarves. It was not
directed at people in any regions of Ukraine. Sometimes in parliament
emotions are running high. But they too subside as parliament’s
sessions end.
[Presenter tries to interrupt]
[Tymoshenko] Concerning this letter, there are other statements which
were disseminated before the third round. These statements did not
belong to me. I want the people who hear me to know that one of the
worst PR tricks before the third tour was when quotes were put
together.
[Presenter, interrupting] I am sorry, we have a caller who wants to
say something on this topic.
[Tymoshenko] Please, let me finish. Irochka, you asked a question from
the people who wrote the letter, and I want to say that these dirty
quotes were written by certain campaign HQs and they pretended that
some politicians said it. I want to tell you that there were many
such quotes. First, that Donetsk and Luhansk should be cordoned off
with barbed wire. Second, to bring Sevastopol to its knees, drown
Odessa in the Black Sea and dismantle the “7th kilometre” marketplace
in Odessa, I can continue with these quotes, but I tell you that I did
not say any of it. I have a different character, a different attitude
to people, I could never say this. For those people who wanted me to
apologize, I want to apologize for everything that I may have said
that may have offended you. But I never said those phrases.
[Presenter] Thank you, your apologies are accepted.
[Passage omitted: Caller says Tymoshenko is not welcome in Donetsk,
people outside the studio shout, a woman asks Tymoshenko why she is
afraid of federalism.]
Against federalism
[Tymoshenko] Now about federalism. You know, we can talk a lot about
some historic details. For example, federalism has never developed in
unitary countries. What is a unitary country? It is a single, united
country without autonomies. Historically, all the federal states
evolved from unions of different lands and territories. But Ukraine as
a unitary state by constitution, a single country, cannot turn the
process backwards, it would be a new historic practice. Besides, if
there are some movements to change border and split the country, it
can be made only though a nationwide referendum. If the people agree,
then we can split. But it cannot be done through declarations by
individual political leaders. One more thing, I was born in
Dnipropetrovsk, I cannot relate to western Ukraine, Lviv and
Ivano-Frankivsk, the same way as to Dnipropetrovsk. Dnipropetrovsk is
my native land. But I do not know a single person who can imagine
Ukraine without Lviv Region, for example or without Donetsk or Kharkiv
or Luhansk. We would all become deficient if we break up our
country. Do we really want part of our nation to suffer the way
[Moldova’s breakaway region] Dniester suffers right now.
[Presenter, interrupting] Mrs Tymoshenko, but Germany has a federal
structure and it is a democratic country.
[Tymoshenko] But Germany began as a union of completely different
territories, and their process was going in the other direction, not
splitting a single country but uniting. I think it will become even
more solid. And here, where we have a great single country, what do we
have to divide? We have nothing to divide. If someone can tell me what
we have to divide, maybe we can discuss it. A split of the country
would not benefit anyone. But if a referendum says so, if someone
holds a referendum on this, if someone living in Ukraine wants to have
a limited territory of our common home, then of course the
constitution must be changed.
[Passage omitted: Tymoshenko argues that pensions and benefits were
not cut by Yushchenko’s government, says people have the right to
protest.]
Powers to opposition
[Markevych] Mrs Tymoshenko, it is apparent that blockades of
parliament, the presidential administration and the Cabinet of
Ministers are very effective tactics. Ukraine now needs a law on the
opposition, it is obvious that there will be tough opposition to your
authorities. You as a political force, as the leader of your bloc, are
you ready to support a law that would give opposition the legal right
to use your radical methods, such as blocking roads and government
buildings and so on.
[Presenter] Very effective methods.
[Tymoshenko] First of all, if people demand something, it must be
done. We all remember when thousands of coal miners came to Kiev and
blocked the administration and the cabinet and demanded what was
rightly theirs. This was a peaceful strike, but strikes happen all
over the world. I think we need not only a law, but we can do one more
thing. Taking in account that I have been in opposition for nine
years, [smiling] I am ready to open a school for young opposition
activists and lecture there at least twice a week on my experiences of
being in opposition. It will be peaceful, I don’t want opposition in
Ukraine to be persecuted the way myself and my family and my whole
team were thrown in jail. When my child was dragged around
prosecutors’ offices.
[Presenter] This will be another topic for us.
[Tymoshenko] I not only support the law, I would even support making a
special amendment to the constitution on opposition in parliament and
to give opposition the rights that it does not have today – the right
to keep the authorities in check. Because no-one can keep the
authorities in check better than the opposition.
[Presenter] If you come to power, will you let your opposition block
the Cabinet of Ministers, parliament and your administration?
[Tymoshenko] I can say that no-one can ban that. I can say firmly that
if the new authorities work that badly, the people should do what they
see right, but peacefully – strikes, blockades and rallies are methods
of open democracy and I will always support them.
[Passage omitted: Tymoshenko says the tent city in Kiev was organized
mostly by the people themselves, not by Yushchenko’s HQ, denies claims
that the tent city cost 30m dollars.]
[Tymoshenko] Prior to making these harsh statements and accusing me,
you should watch what these authorities will be doing for at least six
months, who are these people who came to power. No-one knows us,
no-one knows what we offer.
Defends own record
[Presenter, interrupting] Why, people know you very well. You’ve been
in power before, you governed the country, they know you well.
[Tymoshenko] Right, when I governed the country. I want the people to
hear me, please, don’t interrupt me. When I was deputy prime minister
for only eight months, over these eight months I managed to bring over
10bn hryvnyas [1.88bn dollars] from the shadow sector of the energy
complex in Kuchma’s entourage into the state budget. The entire fuel
and energy complex was reconstructed.
[Markevych, interrupting] At the same time, people had no heating in
their homes, right at that time.
[Tymoshenko] Excuse me, before I took office, the people had neither
heating nor electricity. When I left office, every light bulb was
working in the country and every radiator was warm, and there were no
blackouts when I left the government. I left the government not
because I did something bad but because Kuchma’s entourage lost tens
of billions of hryvnyas. And Kuchma, instead of saying at least one
word of thanks for this work, he caved in to his entourage and threw
me straight from the deputy prime minister’s chair to jail, because I
did what the people expected. These persecution that I have been
experiencing for eight years only because I do not want this country
to look the way it does today, believe me, I am not fighting so that
you can say a kind word to me, but because I know what is happening in
politics. I know that today the authorities and business joined in one
ugly conglomerate, and they must be separated. Most of the TV channels
today – Inter, ICTV and One Plus One, who did not speak the truth
before the revolution, the channels belonging to clans in Kuchma’s
entourage, they created this image of criminals and bandits from the
people who can help you. I wanted business, if I wanted to preserve
something I had before 1996, believe me, it is very easy to cut a deal
with Kuchma. But I did not do it because…
[Markevych, interrupting] Mrs Tymoshenko, our programme is supposed to
be dialogue, you are avoiding an answer.
[Tymoshenko] May I finish?
[Markevych] May I ask a question?
[Tymoshenko] In 30 seconds I will finish with this topic. I want to
say that I didn’t want to cut any deals because I see a way to make
change Ukraine, to change your life, and I want you to see it. Do not
jump to conclusions and do not rush with confrontations and insults.
Media freedom important
[Presenter] Thank you for your answer, we now have the K-61 [regional]
studio on the line. Please, K-61, you’re live.
[Studio presenter] We are on air and we continue asking questions,
please.
[Journalist] Good evening, Mrs Tymoshenko, my name is Andriy
Tyutyunnikov, I am a journalist at the Donetskiye Novosti newspaper. I
have the following question. You have talked about politics on
national channels and information wars and made-up quotes. Mr Tomenko
[opposition MP and head of parliamentary committee for freedom of
speech] said he would take to courts those media who provided what he
said was incorrect information. Does it mean introduction of
censorship? Thank you.
[Tymoshenko] Censorship is out of the question. Regardless of who the
owner is, TV stations must simply tell the truth. This will be one of
the first reforms that we want to implement. I am thankful to the
Ukrayina TV for this opportunity. I know this is a hard programme for
everyone, but thank you for doing this and thanks to the owners of
your channel who also provided this opportunity. No matter how hard
this programme is, I think this will be the first step in eliminating
this massive confrontation which had been created artificially.
[Passage omitted: Tymoshenko presents a heart-shaped toy to presenters
as a sign of good will.]
Attacks Kuchma administration
[Caller] Good evening, this is Mariupol, my name is Lidiya. Mrs
Tymoshenko, I want to ask you personally three question.
[Markevych] Let’s pick only one of those, the most important one,
please.
[Caller] If I could, two questions please. Your actions run counter to
basic civil norms. Mrs Tymoshenko, your team of bandits headed by
impostor Yushchenko has shamelessly stolen the legitimacy of our
President Viktor Yanukovych. You counted on his decency, you are
getting away with it. All the secrets come out eventually.
[Markevych] Thank you, we understand your question.
[Caller] The second question, I want to ask about Lazarenko [fugitive
former prime minister accused of money laundering]. You, Yushchenko
and Lazarenko siphoned our hard-earned money to Cyprus. Your photos
appeared in newspapers on Cyprus with Armenian mafia. Explain please,
what were the circumstances while you present it so cleverly.
[Markevych] Thank you. Very emotional statement.
[Tymoshenko] First of all, everything concerning Interpol. Every
person who has access to the internet go to the Interpol web site and
see that I have never been on any wanted lists. This information is
absolutely false. If I were on a wanted list, we would have to hold
this meeting at some secret hideout and I would wear a long trench
coat, dark glasses and a moustache to make sure no-one recognizes
me. I am not hiding, I am in the streets and on TV. I can say I have
never hidden from anyone and never put my head down. As for Lazarenko,
he was appointed by Kuchma, by the way. In 1997, when I was the first
of all MPs to raise the question in parliament of Kuchma’s
impeachment, after this all my troubles began. Kuchma’s entire team
was trying to erase me from the face of the Earth. You listen to this
information, a political does not need to be killed by a bullet or by
poison, he can be killed by dirty information. A politician who can
help you disappears from your life. As for Lazarenko, not one but tens
of Ukrainian courts closed all the cases against me, my family and my
team. The courts ruled that I never committed any crimes. The same
thing happened in the USA. About 99 per cent of charges against
Lazarenko have been dropped. I am not a judge, I cannot say whether he
did good or bad but I know that all the courts said I had nothing in
common with this man and that I never committed any crimes. What you
heard about me was a campaign against a politician who prevented
Kuchma from fully opening his wings over the territory of Ukraine and
did not let him feel like he owns this Ukraine Ltd. I think time will
prove me right.
[Passage omitted: Tymoshenko takes a question, reiterates that people
can protest peacefully, block presidential administration, reiterates
that media distorted her and Yushchenko’s image.]
No discrimination against Russian-speakers
I was born in Dnipropetrovsk. So speaking of barricades, I am on the
eastern side. I have lived there all my adult life. I learned to speak
Ukrainian only when I came to the government in 1999. My mother and my
whole family live in Dnipropetrovsk. Believe me, we continue speaking
Russian in our family. I will never take any steps to degrade even
slightly the language that my family uses. The same applies to the
families who speak Ukrainian. One more thing. If you remember, Kuchma
ran in two elections with the motto of making Russian an official
language. And he never did. For two years Viktor Yanukovych was prime
minister but he did not raise this question and did not pass this law
with Kuchma. They did not need it, they were not in the opposition,
they didn’t need to promise, they should have acted. I would like the
people to have open eyes on both sides, be more objective. I know for
sure that if we raise this curtain of propaganda, we shall see many
things as they really are. No matter how hard out relations develop, I
know that the government in which I may work will do even impossible
things for Donetsk, Luhansk, Dnipropetrovsk and every region in our
country. Everyone will feel it.
[Presenter] Thank you very much.
[Passage omitted: Tymoshenko reiterates her points on united nation,
media freedom]
[Presenter] Mrs Tymoshenko, there has been a lot of interest in the
foreign media in the election in Ukraine, the three rounds of
elections. About 2,000 foreign correspondents worked in Ukraine, and
many of them worked in Donetsk. They came to our office, asked
questions, talked to us. And a BBC correspondent, Jonathan Charles,
came to our office and shared his impressions and opinions about the
events in Ukraine. Let us listen to what he said.
[Jonathan Charles, in English, overlaid with Russian translation,
translated from Russian] In my view, the situation now is this:
Ukraine has to some extent found itself between a rock and a hard
place, from the point of view of relations between Russia and Western
Europe, which are rather complicated at the moment. And Ukraine is now
like a football. Through Ukraine, the West is trying to tell Russia,
you shouldn’t really think that you will always have your way, there
are some limits, and we will keep you within those limits. So Ukraine
is a ball in this game. I have had time to formulate my point of view,
because I have spent long enough in Ukraine. We have travelled a lot,
and visited different places. The understanding there was from the
very beginning in the West, that there was a revolution in Ukraine,
now I think it was mistaken. The thing is, a revolution is when the
entire people rise up against the government. This is not the
situation in Ukraine. Ukraine as a country is clearly divided. There
are people who support Yanukovych, and there are people who support
Yushchenko. For a country this is not very good, of course. It is a
difficult time for Ukraine, but my personal impression is that most of
the ordinary people we talked to do actually want Ukraine to remain
united.
[Presenter] Jonathan has confirmed some of the points we have
discussed with you. What is your comment on the interview?
[Tymoshenko] First, I am one of those Ukrainians who want Ukraine to
stay united, whatever the circumstances. And Jonathan said the same,
by the way. He said most people want it. Second, I do not want Ukraine
to become an object of kicking on the geopolitical arena. Neither
America, nor Europe or Russia should pursue their own interests on our
territory through some special political projects. I want Ukraine to
become a fully-fledged player on the international arena. I want
Ukraine to turn into a player, a country that has an influence and
which stands up for its interests.
[Passage omitted: Tymoshenko says her faction and most of the
Yushchenko faction voted against troop deployment to Iraq, whereas the
pro-Kuchma and pro-Yanukovych factions backed the move; reiterates her
points against censorship, accepts flowers from the station’s
director.]