Armenian Question is more difficult than Kurdish Question
Interview with Vedat Yildirim
Vedat Yildirim
One of the establishers of Kardes Türküler music group
We were talking with Vedat Yıldırım, one of the establishers and the
soloist of Kardes Türküler which gives out a sound to songs in all
languages of Turkey since 90’s when it was a taboo to express yourself
with different identities. He talks about taboos of Turkey, whom start
to live as defeated, the adventure of being the first music group
which sings in Armenian without being Armenian, his friendship with
Hrant Dink and the point where we are now after 6 years from the day
he’s gone. Yıldırım, who intitles KardesTürküler as a `Rehabilitation
Project’, believes that discriminatory language which is dominated in
Turkey, could be broken with the solidarity of suffered segments of
the society.
There is a sentence that you said in several places: `There are some
people in Turkey who start their lives as going down in defeat. Songs
of Kardes Türküler give confidence and trust to those suffered
segments of society’. Could we regard those who were born in the
center of taboo questions of Turkey as `those who start their lives as
going down in defeat’?
In our last album, there is a song called `1-0′. Its composer is Arto
Tunçboyacıyan. I wrote the lyrics. It is about a peddler boy and his
effort to clutch on the life in the big city. With the big migration
wave, lots of people found themselves in the center of the city. It is
life which they do not get accustomed to. This defeat with the score
of ` 1-0′, sometimes could be `3-0′, it could increase. For example,
for a Kurdish person, the identity problem is a field of challange. On
one side, there are so many economical-financial problems. If you are
an Armenian, this score could be 2-0, because at that point, religious
discrimination and genocide question come into play. Armenian
question is more difficult than the Kurdish one. For example, some
conservative expressions such as `We are from the same religious
community’ `We love due to the the Creator’ could be used in order to
convince people about the Kurdish problem.
As per this expression, there is no pretence to love Armenians¦
This expression fan the flames of Turkish-Islamic synthesis approach.
Thus, those `zeros’ could increase. For example for Gypsies or Alewi
people. Once upon a time, the situation of women with turban was
similar in universities. Those discrimination issues are always
problems in Turkey.
When did you start to explore those problems?
Obviously, I did not know those when we started Kardes Türküler
Project in the university. Official history ` that I call violated
history-, some expressions and red lines created by the state prevent
society from knowing something. Kardes Türküler is a Project which
tries to reveal the visibility of different languages and cultures in
terms of music. Unavoidably, we started to research those societies,
communities and who are their members in Turkey. Since BoÄ?aziçi is a
University that was diverted from Robert College, it is some more
comfortable. There were Armenian records in our library, may be there
is no other records in any other universities. We found in the library
when we said and thought `How could we Access to those musics?’ then
our relationships with Armenian community increased. One day, when we
were working in the university, one of our friend passing through
there stopped and said `this is our language,do you make music in
Armenian?’
You did not know Armenian language, did you? How did you sing?
At first, we imitated. On the other hand, there are some pursuit to
`Find Anyone’. That Armenian friend helped us then Armenians here
supported us, either Agos Newspaper, pr Aras Publishing helped us so
much. We have som any good friends of us there. There is a Mekhitarian
Association where we gave a concert. There are also Armenians from
Istanbul there and other Armenians who migrate from other cities such
as Diyarbakır, they also know speaking Kurdish.
Did you meet Hrant Dink at that period?
We met each othe in Mıhitaryan concert. I guess it was 1995. Rakel
song a flok song in Kurdish and Armenian there. We sang songs in
Turkish, Kurdish, Armenian, Circassian and Azerbaijanese in that
concert.At that time, there was Armenia ` Aerbaijan war. It was a
protestation, an opposition to the effort of pitting nationalities
against others. We thought if a song in Azrbaijanese shall pose a
problem, but they knew the song we sang. Those are difficult
questions. Now it is more difficult to sing a song in Azerbaijani in
Armenia.
How reactions do you get in different places?
Kardes Türküler is such a Project¦ It is a rehabilitation Project. How
rehabilitation is it? Once, we went to Samsun for a concert. Think
about it, we sang Armenian folk songs in Samsun in early 90s. Left
wingers who called us, thus we did not get any negative reactions from
them but there were police officers in the concert hall. We sang in
Kurdish and they asked “what is happening?”. Then we sang Middle East
songs, belly dance musics, then we saw that those police officers
started to dance. We try to make a fair musical presentation. We try
to give all’musical colours in Turkey without any discrimination, Thus
they could not say anything. War questions are something different.
The person whose child died in a war, unavoidably prejudges. Supposing
that a mother of father, who came to our concert in Armenia, lost
their child in a war. HE or she will have a reaction unavoidably when
you sing in Azerbaijanese. But, when she or he listens the whole
concert, that reaction shall remove. Because they see, those people
have different words to say…
I guess, our first album had not been released in Mekhitarian concert.
How was your sharing with Hrant Dink at that period? Did he make
suggestions to you? I guess you went to Ani together.
Hrant has a spell, it is a metaphysical case. Those people are like
that, Che Guevera, Deniz Geçmis, Musa Anter are suchlike. Those are
people who establish very well relationships between political life
and daily life. Their language and style is modest, they serve their
hearts. Our friendship was developped after that concert. We startd
to be together with Agos and its society. We went to Ani with the
occasion of Caucasian Festival in Kars. Of course we had sharing of
ideas. It was his will on us to go to Armenia. He said; `One day, we
went there and Kardes Türküler shall be on the stage with Sayat Nova’.
And he knew Anatolian Armenians. In our first repertories, Armenian
songs were mostly from Armenian songs which were sung in Armenia or
Istanbul. There were rarely Anatolian Armenian songs.
Kurdish language could find itself a place even if it was forbidde at
those times. But, Armenian was sung by a group which is not Armenian,
may be the first time.
Probably it was. It could be Kardes Türküler which is the fist group
that is not Armenian and sings in Armenian. It is the same for Syriac.
When Kardes Türküler develops its repertory, it tries to represent
those forms, musics that were marginalized rather than in an approach
of `Let’s find a good song’ within a cultural scope. For example,
doudouk (`duduk’) is very famous now in Turkey. I guess we are one of
those firsts which use those tones.
And we asked ourselves : `They suffered so much, but are there only
songs of sorrow, migration or massacre? Where are those songs of happy
memories? We worked over Armenian folk dance songs like Hayninari
and Es kisher hampartzum e.
We do not deal with those musics as only nostalgic elements, we try to
update them beyond saying `Past was nice’. We say exactly `Those
musics must go on’.
Do your albums cause such an awakening `How societies, communities,
how musics lived here’ in people who listen to your music? Do you get
feedbacks such as `I did not know, I heard those firstly’?
Of course. We sang a Yezidi (Ezidi) psalm in the last album. They said
`Wow, there is something like that’. Onnik Gulciyan, from Diyarbakır
Armenians has a psalm called `Amen’, when we sing it, they are always
surprised, there is a religious music with tone there.
How do you see the today of Turkey when you think about those times
when Kardes Türküler was released first? Where we at in the taboo
questions?
We are at a very different point in Kurdish question. The gin is
already out of the bottle. Everybody is aware of what is happening and
that this question must be handled and solved in any way, because
Kurdish people do not give up. They could not be convinced with little
things such as TRT Ses. There are three cases that we could think in
the same context in Alevi, Kurdsh and Armenian questions: the murder
of Hrant Dink, Madımak and Uludere. Actually, those three cases look
alike each other so much. They are symbol cases which injures the
sense of the public. There is a very systematic case here. It is hard
to say that those questions are tried to be solved from the basis.
Supposing that the shadow government made those. Now, there is a new
power, new rulership. We wish at least they deal with the security
part of it. The resolution of this problem/question is about the
breaking point of the approach / point of view belong to Turkish `
Islamic synthesis. If there shall be a relief in Kurdish question, it
shall effect other fields and relieve them. Thus, all societies and
communities must be in solidarity. It is required to stand by whom is
sufferer and we try to do this now.
You performed a concert in Armenia in 2008 by realizing the dream of
Hrant Dink. Could you please mentioned how this happened?
It was the will of Hrantç We went with a very crowded team. I could
say that we were 100 people in total with the chorus of Sayat Nova. It
is nor an easy thing that such number of persons went to anywhere
together. Some sponsors and supports were found. We performed in Opera
Hall in Erivan. We went to city of Vanadzor, there was a real public
concert there, it was so nice. Concerts were full, we made
conversations, interviews and communicated with Armenian culture and
art places, centers. We went to a Yezidi/Ezidi village, we made some
records with dengbej (Kurdish-Armenian folk musicians) and we turned
those records into some documentary films.
Is there any idea to go to Armenia again? There was not such an
opportunity you caught again, was there?
No, there wasn’t. This is totally economical problem. The team is
crowded. LAstly, we made an album with Arto Tunçboyacıyan, as you
know. We have an idea to go together but it could not be realized
because of economical and financial reasons. Armenia is not a wealthy
country. Plane tickets are so expensive. The border is closed. You
remember, we took a photo with Hrant in Ani. The opposing side is
Armenia, there is Arpaçay in the middle of Armenia and Turkey. He said
that `Erivan is 30-40 km far from here. An I will board on a plane and
go to Istanbul from Kars, then I will go to Armenia.’ This is such a
case! Kars is a death city, despite the fact that it is very beatiful,
it is death because the border is closed.
Now, I dream of you as performing a concert in the border or in Ani ruins¦.
Actually, there was a Project like that, you know? It could not be
realized, we could not be performed. May be in 2015, it should be
done..
May be it shall not be possible to perform at the border. But think
about it, you are in the Turkish side of the border and another group
from Armenia performs in the Armenian side¦ Because, in Ani, voices of
villagers who work in the other side could be heard in Ani.
Of course it is heard. How nice it shall be. May be we could do such a
symbolic thing. Of course this is due to so many things such as the
condition of the country and Turkey-Armenia relationships. When we
look at the current situation, after Presidents visited each other,
Turkey deadlocked the subject to KarabaÄ?. In fact, questions of
KarabaÄ? and Cyprus are similar. We have also such a problem. So what?
If they shall link this subject to this obvious fact, this won’t get
you anywhere.
We mentioned that you sing in Chechen, Azerbaijanese. Chechens or
Caucasian groups are known as more nationalist. How were their
reactions to your studies? Does it ensures them to be startled when
they heard Armenian or Kurdish, since you sing also in their language
too?
Of course. Sometimes, it throws you a curve. For example, Chechnia or
Palestine Question becomes questions which are always possessed and
adopted by conservative segment of Turkish society in Turkiye. What
happens, people must wonder it. There is a cruelty and suppression in
Chechnia and they have identities, they have a culture. We went to a
place where they live in order them to teach us a Chechen song. We met
with them. They also said that `They always staring at us like that?’.
We do not give up from questioning that justice, the question of `IS
it really that?’ or throwing away all prejudgements. Every community
has a tragedy and those tragedies are common.
I guess Feryal Ã-net mentioned that there are ultranationalistic people
who listen you and they say `Okey, we understand Kurdish but why do
you sing in Armenian?’.
Thus, Armenian question is much more difficult than Kurdish one.
There, those `zeros’ increase so much.
Your stage performances includes different themes. I guess you had a
stage performance which referred to 6-7 September. Is there any idea
to make similar projects?
Yes, we made it for the song called Tatavla. Tatavla is the old name
of Kurtulus. We try to reflect what happened with an imaginative
language, a performance of dance and music. We have a song called
`yo-yo’ regarding Palestinian question, we could say that a meeting of
Gazze ` Cizre. It the fact that children who throw Stones there, are
called as `hero’ but they are called `terrorist’ here. We aimed to
break this two-facedness. We had a show of dance-music performance on
that. And this year, we had a dance show with Çıplak Ayaklar
Kumpanyası.
Recently, we see you on TV more than ever. Even I remember that I said
` We have never seen Kardes Türküler on TV so much until today.
Yes, sometimes we said `Is it armageddon?’ (Laughing). It is a relief.
An ambiance of peace is started to be generated. This have so many
contribution. And the second factor is events and activities regarding
our 20th anniversary.
Once upon a time, there is no television channal which shall broadcast
the video clip of Kardes Türküler.
Yes. With Vizontele, this is started to be broken. But it always
exists in Turkey. As we say `national’ channel, yes actually they are
really `national’. It is said that `If it shall broadcast a song in
Kurdish, go and broadcadt that on TRT Ses.’ To fear from common
communal living spaces and to expect from everybody to live in their
small communities. There is an upper culture and there are `baby
cultures’ under it. It is like `we give you a television, what do you
want more?’. Actually it is also discrimination. I live in Ä°stanbul.
They mention that there are nearly 9 million Kurdish people living in
Istanbul. I could not protect my own culture by making communities.
How reactions did you take in programs to which you particated?
Generally, people were very happy for this meeting. People, who take
the fact that communities/societies could live together as a goal for
themselves, are always very happy.
Then you did not take so many negative reactions?
The web site of Kardes Türküler was hacked. When you are visible, such
things could be happened. It is the same as the case of Hrant Dink.
Someone says `How dare you?’ Kardes Türküler is famous in a special
area where people know them. But when you are broadcasted on TV, the
number of your enemies increases. As I said before, this is a
rehabilitation Project. I hope we shall broket hat discriminative
langıage/approach all together. If God allows (Laughs) .
With the TV program you participated in CNN Türk; Turkey firstly
entered into the new year with songs in Kurdish, Armenian and other
languages. Even, at 00.00, I guess you sang Armenian. How did this new
year program develop?
There are some pressures, okey, but actually, those red lines push us
to make self-censor at one point. They avoid. Whenas there are so
many people who want multiculturalism. They applaused not only the
music of Kardes Türküler, but also the Picture of `We are such a
country’. And thus, they felt very happy. This Picture is given in the
new year may be first time and people loved it. Then, after that
program, invitations came from other channels. Then you broke that
self-censor. This is also about the `positive ambiance’ of our country
now. We could not know what it shall be tomorrow.
It is said that how we enters into the new year, it will pass like
that. Will Turkey go on positively in those problems since it entered
into the new year with those songs?
I feel hopeful. This won’t get us anywhere. That tears it! But the
roads of the peace are Stone and rocks. Of course there shall be
someone who wants to throw a spanner in the works but it is better to
be hopeful.
http://www.repairfuture.net/index.php/en/armenian-question-is-more-difficult-than-kurdish-question