ANKARA: Refutation Of The Armenian Resolution Article By Article-2

REFUTATION OF THE ARMENIAN RESOLUTION ARTICLE BY ARTICLE-2
By Prof. Dr. Kemal CÝcek*

Today’s Zaman, Turkey
March 28 2007

(Article 4) The post-World War I Turkish Government indicted the top
leaders involved in the "organization and execution" of the Armenian
Genocide and in the "massacre and destruction of the Armenians."

Last year, Turkish-Americans staged demonstrations in front of the
United Nations to protest the French bill that banned denying the
so-called Armenian genocide.

The third article of the resolution asserts that the Ottoman Empire
tried those responsible for massacres and thereby implicitly accepted
criminal responsibility during the court-martials. Justin McCarthy,
a leading American expert on the Ottoman history, describes those
courts as "kangaroo courts" and recalls that they were established by
a corrupt administration which was eager for retribution. The British
High Commissioner S.A.G. Calthorphe wrote to London on Aug. 1, 1919,
that the "trials were proving to be a farce and injurious to our own
prestige and to that of the Turkish government" (FO 371/4174/118377).

According to Dr. Ferudun Ata, the author of a book titled "Deportation
Courts in Occupied Ýstanbul," the Ottoman government of the time had
established the court-martials to better its conditions in the Paris
Peace Conference and also to take revenge against the regime of the
"Young Turks."

The interrogations in the courts-martial were not duly conducted,
many witnesses were faked and only testified against the defendants.

For example, a certain Artolos, a shoemaker, who testified against
Maj. Tevfik during the trials in Yozgat, was brought to Ýstanbul and
was paid to speak against the defendant. According to Dr. Ata, he
later appeared before the court in another trial as a Muslim convert.

Dr. Ata’s book reveals many false witnesses like this. Those who spoke
in favor of the suspects were not brought to court. The chairmen of
the courts never charged those false witnesses, although they were
sometimes revealed in court. Dr. Ata also found that some false
witnesses, before bearing testimony at the court, had been trained
and instructed in the "Armenian-Greek Branch" established at the
offices of the British High Commissioner. What is most important
to note about the decisions of these courts is that the Court of
Appeal declared the verdicts null and void. Unfortunately, among
such cases was the verdict of Nusret Bey, who had been executed upon
his death sentence. Such facts about the nature of the post war
courts-martial become more meaningful when we read that the then
US high commissioner, Lewis Heck, reported on April 4, 1919 that
"many here regard executions as necessary concessions to Entente
rather than as punishment justly meted out to criminals," and that
"it is popularly believed that many of them are made from motives of
personal vengeance or at the instigation of the Entente authorities,
especially the British." (NARA 867.00/868; M 353, roll 7, fr. 448).

Lastly we should remember that England also arrested 144 outstanding
politicians of the Committee of Union and Progress (CUP) for crimes
against Armenians and took them to Malta for trial, but later released
all of the detainees without charge.

(Article 5) In a series of courts-martial, officials of the Young
Turks regime were tried and convicted, as charged, for organizing
and executing massacres against the Armenian people.

Besides the findings of Dr. Feridun Ata, historians like Justin
McCarthy and Gunter Lewy stated that post war courts-martial were a
travesty of justice, the findings of these courts were unreliable,
interrogations were not legal, the right of defense for the arrested
was denied and the presiding officer, when questioning the defendants,
often acted more like a prosecutor than like an impartial judge. As
Lewy stated, "The legal procedures of Ottoman military courts,
including those operating in 1919-20, suffered from serious
shortcomings when compared to Western standards of due process of
law." The court did not listen to any testimony during judgment and
the decisions were made by relying solely on false witnesses without
considering the answers of the defense.

(Article 6) The chief organizers of the Armenian Genocide, Minister
of War Enver, Minister of the Interior Talaat and Minister of the
Navy Jemal were all condemned to death for their crimes; however,
the verdicts of the courts were not enforced.

The courts-martial operating in the occupied Istanbul tried Enver,
Talat and Cemal and convicted them to capital punishment in absentia.

Yet, they were not found guilty of "organizing and performing massacres
against Armenians," as stated in the resolution, but they were found
guilty of political crimes for dragging the country into a terrible
war. The fact that the verdicts of the courts were not enforced has
nothing to do with ignorance or being indifferent to the suffering of
Armenians, but that the guilty parties had fled the country after the
war. Anyhow, the untold verity about these people is that they were
assassinated by a secret Armenian organization called "Nemesis" in the
countries where they sought refuge. Sadly, the Nemesis organization
also killed some statesmen like Sait Halim Pasha, Bahaeddin Takir and
Cemal Azmi without judgment although the courts found them innocent.

(Article 7) The Armenian Genocide and these domestic judicial failures
are documented with overwhelming evidence in the national archives of
Austria, France, Germany, Great Britain, Russia, the United States,
the Vatican and many other countries, and this vast body of evidence
attests to the same facts, the same events, and the same consequences.

This is also untrue. I have personally dug out the documents preserved
at the US National Archives and Research Foundation and found no
concrete evidence in the documents that can be qualified for use in
court. The documents in the archive contain reports by the consul
and the testimony of the missionaries who were biased toward the
Muslims and the Turks and reported information that they had not
witnessed, but rather heard through secondary sources. It can safely
be claimed that an overwhelming amount of these documents and reports
are based on hearsay. There are also large amount of documents, or
rather statements, from the Patriarchate and Taþnaksutyun political
propaganda offices. As a matter of fact, documents and reports from
the United States consuls had been examined by the officials "for
any mention of forty-five Malta detainees accused of outrages against
Armenians and other Christians" and found no information that could
"be employed in a court of law." Thus, one cannot help thinking that
this might be the reason why the proposal of the Turkish government
to set up an international committee of historians have so far been
refused by the Republic of Armenia.

TO BE CONTINUED

*Head of Black Sea Technical University, Faculty of Arts & Sciences;
Turkish Historical Association, Armenian Desk

–Boundary_(ID_7WiOPTnHNtdptOAH8VeoTA)–

The Armenian Church Of The Holy Cross On Lake Van Reopened But Only

THE ARMENIAN CHURCH OF THE HOLY CROSS ON LAKE VAN REOPENED BUT ONLY AS A MUSEUM
by Mavi Zambak

AsiaNews.it, Italy
March 28 2007

Built in the X century it lies in one of the country’s most
beautiful areas, the very site of the Armenian genocide occurred. The
journalist Hrant Dink, killed a months ago, had asked for the churches
restoration and reopening. For years the ancient frescos had been
used for target practice; the sacred building blackened by barbecue
smoke for picnics. Armenian religious authorities protest.

Patriarch Mesrob II refuses to participate in the ceremony.

Ankara (AsiaNews) – Tomorrow March 29 the Turkish government will
reopen – as a museum – the ancient Armenian Church of the Holy Cross
on Akdamar island in the middle of lake Van, on eastern Turkey’s
border with Armenia. The date had been moved over 4 times.

Tomorrow Turkish authorities will be present at the ceremony, including
prime minister Erdogan, but the Armenian spiritual authorities will
not be present. In fact the Ankara authorities have denied the use
of the building as a Church and has also refused to place a cross at
the summit of the dome, as the original Church once had.

Frescos destroyed and blackened

Lying in a splendid salt water volcanic lake, this suggestive church is
reached by a short 15 minute baost trip. It is one of the most precious
examples of Armenian tenth century art in existence, an architectural
creation of rare beauty (view the photo album at following address:
).

In the past the Turkish journal Milliyet, had denounced the alarming
story that the bas relief which decorate the facade of the Holy Cross
and depict scenes from the New and Old testament, were being used as
target practice. In order to prove the damage caused they published
photos illustrating the extent of the bullets destruction. Moreover,
on hearing of a hidden treasure present on the island, local residents
became "hunters" in search of the presumed riches, committing untold
acts of vandalism in the process.

As if that was not enough, the island, a popular destination for
holiday picnic makers, was literally invaded by barbeques some even
installed within the church itself, with the tragic consequence that
the frescos on the church interior were blackened beyond recognition.

In 2004 the newspaper Zaman also raised the alarm about the degraded
state of Holy Cross Church, despite the fact that it is a tourist
location of renowned popularity among visitors from all over the world,
above all the Armenian Diaspora. In fact it is widely known that
this area – among the most beautiful landscapes in Turkey – is sadly
infamous for having been one of the sites of the Armenian genocide of
1915. Today for many Armenians, wherever they may be, Akdamar remains
a place dear to their hearts, so much so that many try to visit it
before they die. The sight of elderly Armenians falling to their knees
in prayer as they set foot on the sacred island is not a rare one.

A year and a half ago, the Turkish authorities decided to restore
this artistic patrimony, a plan to preserve the historic identity
of the church was laid out and after 15 months of intense work the
restoration- which cost over 2 million euros and was carried out by
the Turkish architect of note Zakerya Mildanoglu -has finished.

But not without controversy.

Il restauro e il genocidio armeno

Armenian Turkish journalist Hrant Dink – killed in Istanbul on
January 19th – wrote an article for the Turkish paper Birgun which was
republished by Milliyet the very day of his assassination: "Ten years
ago I first appealed to the Van authorities. "Instead of inventing
a monster in the lake to attract tourists why don’t you take care of
the work of art which lies right under your nose. What need is there
to waste your time on stupidities? Van is a veritable treasure from
an Artistic point of view. Why do you not act seriously and sit down
to ask yourselves: What if we restore the region? – And even if then
Armenians did arrive, let them come to visit the birth place of their
forefathers, what harm could they possibly do? " And I even added:
"If you need help we are ready. Turkey’s Armenians and those of the
Diaspora are ready to volunteer their services, we are at your orders,
let this be known! Come let us restore not only the Church but also
our disenchanted souls". Finally after a long wait restoration on
Akdamar are completed (…) we are deeply indebted to Cahit Zeydanli
for his meticulous work, he consulted experts from Armenia and also
with architect Zakarya Mildanoglu, and Armenian from Turkey. They did
their best and they have created something splendid. The did great
things, but alas then politicians and bureaucrats became involved and
the inauguration could not take place. Once the opening was put of
from November 4th 2006 for reasons of inclement weather to April the
24th, as explained by Culture Minister Atilla Koc. Reactions were not
short in coming. The Armenian Patriarch Mutafyan made known that in
the case the inauguration actually happened on April 24th no Armenian
should attend. Last week the question even arose in Parliament. CHP
(Peoples Republican Party) deputy Erdal Karademir asked if the date of
April 24th, the anniversary of the Armenian genocide, was a reflection
of the politics of AKP (Justice and Development Party).

For its’ part the nationalist press presented the event as "the
inauguration of the Van vendetta". They succeeded in transforming
something positive into an error, a farce, a disaster. The government
still has not taken up a clear position regarding the Armenian
question. It is not concerned with resolving the issue, but in scoring
points in a political battle, in basis of their opponents moves. They
lack all credibility. The invite Armenian historians to the discussion
table but then show no scruples in putting people on trial who have a
different view point to the official line on the question. The restore
the Armenian Church to attract tourists to the western Anatolia region,
at the same time showing no sahme in scoring political points from it".

After hypothesising over April 11th, now it has been decioded: tomorrow
there will be the opening ceremony with the presence of prime minister
Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Minister for Culture and Tourism Attila Koc,
the Minister for Armenian Culture Hasmik Poghosyan has also been
invited. But the problems persist.

It is well known that the Border between Turkey and Armenia is closed,
thus after various attempts to have a conduit opened, or a special
airfield made available for the special occasion, so the Armenian
authorities could make their way to Van directly from the Armenian
capital, following Turkey’s repeated no, the group of Architects,
historians and journalists today set out on an arduous 15 hour
journey overland through Georgia, when Van lies a few hundred miles
from Erivan.

A museum without a cross or religious ceremonies

The Armenian Patriarch Karekin Katolikos II has joined Turkish Armenian
Patriarch Mesrob II in refusing to attend. Why? This historic Church
has been transformed into a museum, a request for a cross to be
put in place at the summit of the dome has been refused, there will
be no bells and the opening ceremony will be equal to that of any
secular museum.

"Seeing as it is not considered a Church, seeing as no religious
celebration will mark this reopening, my presence there is really
insignificant", affirmed Patriarch Mesrob II, adding: "I pleaded with
the President and Prime Minister to see that a cross be placed on
the dome, I invited them to establish an annual Armenian festival in
the area, but I have yet to receive an answer. Therefore my presence
there on March 29th really has little sense".

And the delicate relationship between the Patriarch and the Turkish
authorities do not end here.

Days ago Mesrob II travelled under heavy police escort following death
threats to Iskenderun, in ancient Alessandretta, a maritime city on
Turkey’s Mediterranean coast, to celebrate the 225 anniversary of
the local Armenian Church. Well, there in that very city which is
also home to the Catholic Vicariate to Anatolia, the mayor decided to
erect a monument to the Turks killed by French and Armenians during
the French occupation of 1918-38.

The Patriarch, could only comment on this gesture as a further
provocation by nationalists to divide the population : "Instead
of building a bridge of dialogue between peoples, in this way they
heighten tensions, this can only be the work of nationalists", he
sadly commented to journalists.

Even regarding Hrant Dink’s assassination, nothing clear has so far
emerged: "If we still cannot find the true perpetrators of this
crime, it means that they are well protected and from on high",
is the Patriarchs embittered response.

http://www.pbase.com/dosseman/akdamar

Precipitations, Mainly Snow, Forecast Until March 30 In Armenia

PRECIPITATIONS, MAINLY SNOW, FORECAST UNTIL MARCH 30 IN ARMENIA

Noyan Tapan
Mar 28 2007

YEREVAN, MARCH 28, NOYAN TAPAN. Precipitations, mainly snow, are
forecast until March 30 in the territory of Armenia, especially in
the eastern regions.

No precipitations are forecast on March 31 and precipitations are
again forecast on April 1-2.

As Noyan Tapan correspondent was informed by Gagik Surenian, chief
specialist of Haypethydromet Department’s Meteorological Forecasts
Unit, the temperature will not change in the country until March 30
and from March 31 to April 1 it will rise by 4-9 degrees.

>>From March 29 to April 2, maximum temperature in country’s valleys
will be +19 and minimum temperature +3, in mountainous regions +9
and -10, respectively.

RA Delegation Departed For Van To Participate In Akhtamar Church Ina

RA DELEGATION DEPARTED FOR VAN TO PARTICIPATE IN AKHTAMAR CHURCH INAUGURATION

PanARMENIAN.Net
28.03.2007 13:52 GMT+04:00

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ The official Armenian delegation departed for
Van to take part in the inauguration of the Church of St. Cross on
Akhtamar island. As a PanARMENIAN.Net reporter came to know from the RA
Ministry of Culture and Youth Affairs, the delegation is led by Deputy
Acting Minister of Culture Gagik Gyurjian. The delegation includes
Mrktich Muradyan, Director of the Institute of Architecture at the RA
Academy of Sciences, Ruben Safrastyan, Director of the Institute of
Oriental Studies at the RA Academy of Sciences and Artem Grigoryan,
the Head of the Department for Protection of Historical Monuments at
the RA government.

The inauguration is due on March 29. Representatives of the Echmiadzin
and Cilician Catholicosates of the Armenian Apostolic Church refused
to take part in the event, since St. Cross will function as a museum
but not as a church.

Delegation of Armenian DM to have official visit to China

Agency WPS
DEFENSE and SECURITY (Russia)
March 26, 2007 Monday

DELEGATION OF ARMENIAN DEFENSE MINISTRY TO HAVE OFFICIAL VISIT TO
CHINA

The delegation of Armenian Defense Ministry headed by Serzh
Sarkisyan, Defense Minister and Secretary of the Security Council,
will go on an official visit to China on March 26. On Friday, Colonel
Seiran Shakhsuvaryan, press secretary of the Defense Minister,
reported that the visit would include meetings with top ranking state
and military officials of China.

The program of the visit also includes examinations of military
educational institutions and military formations of China. The
Armenian delegation will return to Yerevan on March 29.

March 28 announced day of mourning in Armenia

March 28 announced day of mourning in Armenia

ArmRadio.am
27.03.2007 11:40

On March 26 RA President Robert Kocharyan signed a decree on
announcing a day of mourning in the Republic of Armenia on March 28
connected with the death of Prime Minister Andranik Margaryan.

RA Ministries, agencies, Marzpets and the Mayor of Yerevan have been
instructed to lower all the RA state flags in Armenia and diplomatic
representations of the Republic of Armenia abroad.

Arkady Ghukasian: PM Has Unique Contribution in 2nd Armenian State

ARKADY GHUKASIAN: "ANDRANIK MARGARIAN HAS HIS UNIQUE CONTRIBUTION IN
IMPROVEMENT OF NKR AS SECOND ARMENIAN INDEPENDENT STATE"

STEPANAKERT, MARCH 27, NOYAN TAPAN. On the occasion of RA Prime
Minister, Chairman of the Republican Party of Armenia Andranik
Margarian’s sudden death, NKR President Arkady Ghukasian sent telegram
of condolence to the late’s family. The telegram reads the following:
"A person prematurely passed away who completely devoted his rich
experience, knowledge and patriotic vigour to creation and
strengthening of the Armenian independent statehood, security of the
economic progress of Armenia, increase of the Armenian people’s
well-being.

>From the first days of the Artsakh movement Andranik Margarian had
active participation in our national-liberating struggle, introduced
his unique contribution in the affair of gaining the victory,
improvement of the Republic of Nagorno Karabakh as the second Armenian
independent state, its social-economic development. The veritable
patriot’s memory will remain very bright in the memory of all of us,
in the whole Armenian people’s memory. Accept my sincere condolence at
this moment of hard grief for your family and all of us. I wish you
patience and might of soul." As Noyan Tapan was informed by the NKR
President’s Press Office, on the occasion of RA Prime Minister
Andranik Nahapet Margarian’s death, NKR President Arkady Ghukasian
signed a decree on March 26 on announcing mourning on March 28, in the
Republic of Nagorno Karabakh.

TBILISI: Heads should roll

The Messenger, Georgia
March 23 2007

Heads should roll

Having banged on for over a year about how the final status of Kosovo
would set an inevitable, unavoidable precedent for Georgia’s
breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, the Russian elite
have now decided that it won’t after all. Russian Foreign Minister
Sergey Lavrov, appearing before the Duma, was asked about the issue,
and the mealy mouth semi-reply he gave (he didn’t even get round to
finishing, he was saved by the bell and the session ended) is ample
evidence of the totally short sighted, reactive, and frankly inept
policy Russia has in regards to Georgia.

"We emphasize that any decision about Kosovo will create a
precedent…But projection of this situation to, South Ossetia and
Transdnistria would not be appropriate. I repeat there is no link"
fumbled Lavrov.

What sort of precedent is it that doesn’t create a precedent? Lavrov
has created a precedent of his own by redefining the very word, but
that is the least of his problems re Georgia. The fact is that
Russian foreign policy has totally failed. Everything they have tried
has been totally wrong footed from the word go. Lavrov probably has
bigger fish to fry, it’s likely not his fault, but some people really
need to get fired.

The first to lose their job should be the person who came up with the
idea of blowing up the pipeline last January. As if Georgia, a
country that did without electricity, gas and virtually everything
else for much of the nineties, would suddenly crumble after few days
of wearing coats indoors. The plan was doomed to failure form the
start, whoever came up with clearly doesn’t possess an atlas, and
didn’t realise they’d be hurting Russia’s long suffering but loyal
ally Armenia in the process.

The wine ban man also needs a dressing down, all he managed to do was
make a world that usually doesn’t care feel sorry for plucky little
Georgia. But the person who really should never eat lunch in Moscow
again is the man that dreamt up the idea that Igor Giorgadze could
become president. They must have spent million on him. The offices in
the centre of all Georgia’s towns, one on Rustaveli, one on
Perovskaya and one on Chavchavadze, must have cost a pretty penny.
All the rallies, whose participants were paid between five and ten
lari, would have run up quite a tab too. And for what? To promote
probably the least popular man in Georgia as an alternative
president, it’s like putting Marshal Petain up for president of
France in 1945. Whoever came up with the idea is either barking mad
or a comedy genius.

And the really baffling thing is: they haven’t learnt their lesson.
Whatever apparatchik-on-acid came up with Giorgadze subsequently
pinned their hopes on Irina Sarishvili, possibly because she is as
crazy as they are.

Everything they do is totally counterproductive, but they are unable
to change their methods. Another prime example is the neutrality
issue. Russia really, really doesn’t want Georgia to join NATO, but
by calling for Georgia neutrality they only boosted the already
formidable support for NATO membership. Anyone could have told them
that would happen. How many boobs are the people who decide Georgia
policy allowed before they find themselves out of a job? Who are
these people, where do they work-the foreign ministry, the Kremlin,
la la land?

We should be told.

Culture plays role in police diversity

Los Angeles Daily News, CA
March 24 2007

Culture plays role in police diversity

Armenian community more receptive to law enforcement jobs

BY EUGENE TONG, Staff Writer
Article Last Updated: 03/23/2007 09:51:26 PM PDT

GLENDALE – Tigran Topadzhikyan was born in Soviet-era Armenia, a
repressive place where police officers didn’t have the best public
image.

So it wasn’t entirely a surprise that his mother would frown on his
decision to pursue a law enforcement career.

"My mom was a little apprehensive," said Topadzhikyan, 31, who has
served as a Glendale police officer for more than a decade. "She
thinks it was dangerous even when I was an (police) Explorer. I was
the first one in my family doing something like that. She supports me
throughout now."

Topadzhikyan and Lola Abrahamian, also of Armenian descent, were
among four officers recently promoted to sergeant – a boon to a
department that has been trying to diversify its force to police an
increasingly diverse city of 207,000.

According to city and census estimates, at least 30 percent of its
residents are Armenian-American, 20 percent are Latino and 17 percent
Asian-American.

But the current force of 253 officers – 6 percent are of Armenian
descent, 23 percent Latino, 6 percent Asian-American and 60 percent
white – still needs to catch up.

"Ideally, you want your police force to match the demographics of the
city," Glendale Police Chief Randy

———————————————– ———————————

Advertisement

————————————————– ——————————
Adams said in a recent interview. "The reality is, that does not
happen overnight."
The department has made progress – a decade ago, only three officers
out of a force of 195 were Armenian-American, compared with seven in
2002 and 14 today.

The difficulty lies in finding enough recruits who meet department
standards – and a cultural bias of some Armenian families who view
law enforcement as a blue-collar profession to be avoided, Adams
said.

"In order to match the demographics of the city, you certainly
shouldn’t compromise your standards," he said.

However, critics say change isn’t happening fast enough. Zanku
Armenian of the Armenian National Committee said the department needs
to step up recruitment while training current officers to better
navigate the community.

"Just like you would have diversity training in a major corporation,
there needs to be that kind of fundamental training in the department
in order to evolve the culture," said Armenian, a board member of the
group’s western region chapter. "It takes a long time and very
thoughtful effort."

Past friction between the department and some Armenians has fostered
a measure of distrust. Stephan Partamian, an Armenian community
activist, said police made it a point to pull over people of color in
the 1980s, a time before the city’s demographics shifted.

"I think right now, it’s the best as ever," said Partamian, who hosts
a call-in television show. "Glendale police have done very well in
adapting to the multicultural face of Glendale. … But every week,
people call me to complain."

A lot of the calls are rooted in cultural misunderstanding, Partamian
said. He recalls a run-in he had last year with an officer during a
traffic stop:

"He came to the window. … In a very bad manner, he asked me
something – then he spit on the floor, like something I had seen in a
Western movie.

"I gave him my driver’s license, and he asked me how many times had I
been arrested," Partamian said. "I think it’s impolite."

Partamian said he took the issue to the City Council – three of the
five councilmen are of Armenian descent – and met with Adams, who
listened to his concerns.

"It turned out he was a rookie officer and had a habit of chewing
tobacco."

That’s not to say would-be Armenian-American criminals won’t try to
take advantage of a common ethnicity.

"Obviously, that’s happened," said Abrahamian, a 10-year Glendale
police veteran who was born in Iran and grew up in Los Angeles. "I’ve
arrested somebody and they would say, `How is it? Can you let me go?’

"The answer is, no."

Author will sign book on Armenian genocide

DetNews.com, MI
March 24 2007

Author will sign book on Armenian genocide

The Detroit News

SOUTHFIELD — Taner Akcam, a University of Minnesota historian, will
sign copies of his book, "A Shameful Act: The Armenian Genocide and
the Question of Turkish Responsibility," at 7:30 p.m. Saturday at the
Manoogian School, 22001 Northwestern Highway in Southfield.

Akcam has attracted attention because he is one of the first Turkish
intellectuals to devote his career to studying the Armenian Genocide,
the Ottoman Empire’s systematic slaughter of more than 1 million
Armenians from 1915-1923. The modern Turkish government still
officially denies such a slaughter ever took place.