KASPAROV: I WILL WIN AGAINST PUTIN
Gazeta Wyborcza (in Polish)
Oct 20 2012
Poland
Interview with Garry Kasparov, chess master and politician, by Piotr
Pacewicz and Krzysztof Pacewicz
[passage omitted on chess-playing career]
[Gazeta Wyborcza] Kasparov the politician has not scored such
successes.
[Kasparov] Why do you think so?
[Gazeta Wyborcza] Opposition politicians in Russia are described as
being “five minutes short of president.” Such irony refers to your
weak position.
[Kasparov] Did I promise that I would become president? Politics
is not just chess. Not every victory counts. The dissidents during
Soviet times used to say: do what you have to, and what will be will
be. In 2005 I set up the United Civil Front, which is fighting for
the reinstatement of parliamentary democracy. One year later the
Other Russia coalition was created. When we win, I will be able to
quit politics. I have had enough fame in my life.
[Gazeta Wyborcza] The Other Russia coalition includes, apart from you,
also the National Bolsheviks, whose youth group chats at rallies:
“Stalin — Beria — gulag.”
[Kasparov] The differences between us are vast, but they will only
matter once we have a free parliament. Elections to the Russian
opposition council will be held any moment now. Nationalists,
leftists, liberals are sitting down to talk. No one believed it could
be done. But here you have it!
[Gazeta Wyborcza] Is “Putin must go” the only thing you share?
[Kasparov] Not only. We need to destroy the conditions that created
him. The 1993 constitution will be abolished. My bet is that the
free Russia will not have a strong president, like France or the
United States. We will adopt the Polish model, or even the Estonian
one (where the president is elected by a single-house parliament —
editor’s note). That is Putin’s “legacy,” he has inoculated us… We
will give more power to the regions, to the municipalities. We will
be electing sheriffs, judges.
[Gazeta Wyborcza] Are you not counting your chickens before they’ve
hatched?
[Kasparov] I know that the regime is deeply rooted and has a
financial powerbase such as the world has never seen. In March 2011,
US Vice President Joe Biden visited Russia. He met with Medvedev, then
president, with Putin, then prime minister, and then he invited in the
opposition. Of course we went, although we no longer look upon America
as the refuge of democracy. Unfortunately, the United States uses
“democracy” as a geopolitical tool in fighting for its own interests.
Biden got to talking. He talked about how he had told Putin not to run
in the presidential race, that he presumably did not want to follow in
Mubarak’s footsteps, that this was not the kind of thing that is done!
I responded: “With all due respect, Mr. Vice President, you seem not
to realize that compared to Putin you and Obama are beggars. You have
to ask Congress for every million. Putin can spend 1 billion without
signing a paper.” Putin controls the budget, the currency reserves,
and the fortunes of the oligarchs. A total of a trillion dollars. Do
you know how to count to a trillion?
[Gazeta Wyborcza] Putin of course did run. In 2012 he became president
for a third time, with 64% support.
[Kasparov] He created a system that sustains itself. He took advantage
of the political pendulum, because following the chaotic 1990s people
wanted stability. He proved to be an excellent psychologist. Well,
that’s the KGB. He knows how to handle the bureaucracy, he maintains
a balance between groups of oligarchs. He understands that they need
his protection in the West. And he gives them it. He builds relations,
friendships, or buys off people in Europe or the United States.
He knows how to be on friendly terms with Western leaders. He told Bush
fervently about his Christian faith. On television, the Russians have
been watching him for years, slapping Bush, then Obama, then Blair,
then Sarkozy on the back! That must mean that he is a democrat!
He is a maestro of the geopolitical casino. He negotiates everything
at the same time: oil prices, Iran, the nuclear program, human rights
in Russia. He knows how to manipulate.
[Gazeta Wyborcza] For the sake of what is Putin doing this?
[Kasparov] He has no ideology, which makes him more difficult to pin
down. We know who Pinochet was, who Castro was. But Putin is a ghost!
He can be a liberal, a nationalist, a leftist. That does not matter
to him. He is an oligarch, a super-oligarch.
[Gazeta Wyborcza] Does he express the Russian imperial spirit?
[Kasparov] Nonsense! For him, Russia’s territory is another commodity
to trade in. He gave land to China in order to facilitate economic
cooperation; he gave Norway a piece of the sea the size of Austria,
because Gazprom needed technology from Statoil. Putin believes
that power and money are inseparable. That is no wonder, if a former
German chancellor (Gerhard Schroeder signed the agreement to build the
Nord Stream pipeline with Russia, for which an exchange he received
a position on the supervisory board of the consortium building the
pipeline — editor’s note) and a former Finnish prime minister (Paavo
Lipponen, a consultant for a Gazprom subsidiary — editor’s note)
are working for him at Gazprom.
Putin’s strength is the bureaucrats’ conviction that they have to play
his game. That is the way things are in the mafia. If you are loyal,
you can murder and steal with impunity; you will only be punished
for disloyalty. Here the case of Magnitsky is symptomatic.
[Gazeta Wyborcza] Sergey Magnitsky, a lawyer for the Moscow division of
the Hermitage Capital fund, died in 2009 after nearly a year in prison.
[Kasparov] He was put in jail after he disclosed fraud by employees
of the tax services and the Interior Ministry.
[Gazeta Wyborcza] The US Senate was working on a “Magnitsky law.” The
idea was to refuse visas to and to confiscate the US assets of the
Russian officials complicit in the lawyer’s death, or any sort of
corruption. In the end, it was not enacted.
[Kasparov] The people who were doing the stealing there were just
lieutenants, tax police officials. Pawns. Why did Putin protect them
so much, allowing them to kill Magnitsky? The answer is: in the mafia,
there are no pawns. The capo di tutti capi has to protect everyone.
Otherwise the system will become unstable. Putin fought fiercely to
block the “Magnitsky law.” He threatened to retaliate against the
United States. He sensed a lethal danger, because the oligarchy holds
its fortunes broad. Mafia activity came into conflict with their
interests, and a rift occurred. Because the regime’s problem is of
a twofold nature. Putin wants to rule like Stalin, but to live like
a Abramovich.
[Gazeta Wyborcza] Putin’s regime will collapse from inside?
[Kasparov] Yes, when a majority of this mafia ceases to believe
that he serves their interests. But remember, Putin has his finger
on the nuclear button! History has never yet known such a madman in
possession of nuclear weapons. Even the Soviet leaders understood
that there are certain limits.
[Gazeta Wyborcza] If the regime will collapse on its own, what role
do you see for your coalition?
[Kasparov] We need to help it. Putin is maintaining fear on the
surface. Many Russians have it encoded in their genes that any change
is always for the worse. The government we have may not be very good,
but a different one would be just as bad or even worse!
[Gazeta Wyborcza] What role do you see for yourself? A leader? An
advisor?
[Kasparov] I know how to reconcile differences, to facilitate
agreement. I am a Russian by language and culture, and Armenian by
my mother, a Jew by my father…
[Gazeta Wyborcza] You were born with the surname Weinstein. At the
age of 12, you adopted your mother’s name Gasparyan, in a Russified
version.
[Kasparov] For my political partners I am above all a world champion
who defended the honor of the c ountry. I could therefore live a
comfortable life, but I am staying here, in Russia, and fighting.
[Gazeta Wyborcza] You come off well in interviews and on talk shows.
But is your voice being heard in Russia?
[Kasparov] I would like to add Russian television to our portfolio.
The last time I was on was seven years ago, but I am still waiting
for an invitation (laughs). Fortunately, the Internet is developing
quickly. In Moscow, the net is already more important than TV. And
revolutions generally play out in the capital city. If there are
100,000 people at a rally and 10 people up on stage, we can ask: why
them? That guy is there, that other guy is not — why? The Internet
facilitates an exchange between the “crowd” and the “stage.” Our
coalition’s website already has 34,000 individuals, and there will
be 100,000 and more. You register, provide your name and information
about yourself, and you become a member of a free Russia. You can
vote, comment on the debate about our 200 candidates in the 2013
regional elections. Putin does everything in secrecy. We want to be
so transparent it hurts.
[Gazeta Wyborcza] We saw a video from the One Russia youth group
rally. A young man was holding a pig wrapped in a US flag. The pig
was squealing, and the young man was crying that Kasparov’s homeland
was America, not Russia.
[Kasparov] I won 8 gold medals, four for the USSR, four for Russia. No
one has such successes. I have not left my country. I do not hold
a foreign passport or green card (giving one the right to reside in
the United States — editor’s note). Why do I travel abroad so much?
Because in Russia I have not earned a penny for five years. I earn
my money abroad, playing demonstration matches, giving lectures,
advising companies.
I married three times, and I have three children. My first wife left
ages ago; my daughter is now 19 and lives in the United States. My
son was born and lives in Moscow. I decided that my third wife would
give birth in the United States. My little daughter is six years old,
and they are in New York. I cannot afford security for every member
of my family.
[Gazeta Wyborcza] How threatened do you feel?
[Kasparov] For us and Russia, the story of Anna Politkovskaya (human
rights defender and journalist murdered in 2006 — editor’s note) is
not just a story about a hero. Her death reminds us of what kind of
country we live in. The name Kasparov does not give me full protection,
but if I am meant to be a moral leader for the opposition, I have to
take the risk. I try to minimize it: I have bodyguards, I do not fly
Aeroflot, I do not eat in places I do not trust.
But it is not me who takes money away from Russia and deposits it in
foreign banks, or buys villas in France. I earn money there, and pay
taxes in Russia. The reverse of what they do.
Do you want to talk about foreign citizens? Take a look at Gennady
Timchenko (a billionaire, once in the KGB, called “Putin’s cashier”
— editor’s note). He controls 40% of oil exports. He has Finnish
citizenship, and pays taxes in Switzerland.
[Gazeta Wyborcza] You are constantly attacking Putin. But perhaps
people would like to hear something more? For instance, about your
vision for Russia?
[Kasparov] Read my series of articles on “Russia after Putin.” But
it is naive to think that anything can be changed as long as he is
in power. The match against Putin is under way. Two were three more
years, and things will erupt.
[Gazeta Wyborcza] For years, we have been hearing you talk about two
or three more years.
[Kasparov] Never before have we had 100,000 people on the streets.
History is on my side. The first decade of the 21st century belonged to
dictators. Al-Qaddafi strengthened his power, Chavez gained strength,
Bashar al-Assad replaced his father, and Mubarak was preparing the
throne for his son. Some of them have already collapsed, others are
losing strength.
[Gazeta Wyborcza] For years you have tried to organize protests, then
suddenly a wave of rebellion came to Russia, following the Occupy
movements, following the Arab Spring…
[Kasparov] I would not compare them to one another.
[Gazeta Wyborcza] Here and there, people are getting organized
“horizontally,” outside of party structures, brought together by the
Internet. You talk about the winter revolution as being your own. Is
that justified?
[Kasparov] Am I saying that I am the leader of the revolution? That
would be absurd. But I do not agree that we did nothing, that
everything happened just like that. We did as much as we could in
the given situation.
[Gazeta Wyborcza] In March 2007, several thousand people came out on
the streets of St. Petersburg. You gave a speech: “This is our first
victory. I congratulate you on having overcome fear.”
[Kasparov] Sentiments had already risen, but Putin brought Medvedev
into the game, turning the presidency over to him (2008-2012 —
editor’s note). He created the illusion of change. From the beginning
I was saying that Medvedev was a puppet, that the mass of Russians
had allowed themselves to be duped. For three and a half years, the
Americans tried to incite Medvedev against Putin. Sentiments abated
all the way to 24 September 2011.
[Gazeta Wyborcza] When Medvedev proposed that Putin should run for
president in 2012.
[Kasparov] Russians told themselves: “Putin is returning to the
throne for the rest of our lives?! That was not the deal.” Putin was
meant to stabilize the country, ensure a better standard of living,
and then step down. But now he is supposed to rule for six years? And
then another six?
[Gazeta Wyborcza] How many respondents would back Putin nowadays in
an honest opinion poll?
[Kasparov] What does that mean, honest?
[Gazeta Wyborcza] Unrigged.
[Kasparov] No, no, no. Honest means that you have an opportunity to
present various opinions on television.
[Gazeta Wyborcza] People have what they have in their minds.
[Kasparov] But that is not honest! After 12 years of propaganda….
[Gazeta Wyborcza] If they spoke without fear…
[Kasparov] That is a mistaken assumption. Because people are afraid.
They would cease to be afraid if they saw that they were allowed to
express different views. Putin would not survive two weeks of open
debate on television. We would show the list of billionaires and their
relations with the regime. Even now, Putin’s official result in the
2012 election in Moscow was just 47% (compared to 64% throughout the
country — editor’s note). I was at the polling stations, and I know
that in fact the result was 10 points worse.
>>From the manipulated elections in December 2011 until the end
of September, we held eight large rallies, with even as many as
60,000-70,000 people. People want change. The inciting factor could
be anything: economic collapse, some sort of catastrophe. The question
today is not WHO, but WHAT will replace Putin. If we provide a response
to that, half a million people will come out onto the streets in
Moscow alone.
[Gazeta Wyborcza] You really do have the temperament of a chess
player…
[Kasparov] …my opponents complained that I had too much energy
(laughs).
[Gazeta Wyborcza] We saw the film of your arrest after commenting on
the verdict against Pussy Riot, the punk-rock feminists.
[Kasparov] That was not AFTER the interview, but DURING it. The
Radio Freedom correspondent said in court: they took him from under
my microphone.
[Gazeta Wyborcza] You were trying to break free, like a bear shaking
off dogs.
[Kasparov] I have already been arrested during demonstrations. I
understand that. When I go chanting “Down with Putin!” they might
harass me, even though we are protesting peacefully. But on that
September morning I ha d just come back from vacation in Croatia. I
went to the Pussy Riot trial, just as I had attended the Khodorkovsky
hearings. I walked out of the court, and a journalist asked me a
question. My wife says I was fortunate. They only hurt my arm. On
the film you cannot see how I was beaten in the bus for detainees.
[Gazeta Wyborcza] You broke free of them, jumped up, they again
took you.
[Kasparov] That was my right. Even Putin’s court ruled that I had
been arrested illegally.
[Gazeta Wyborcza] What do you think about Pussy Riot?
[Kasparov] That verdict was scandalous! They can be called the first
political prisoners. Of course Khodorkovsky is political, Lebedev was
political, but they had other charges leveled against them, the regime
masks its behavior. But these girls were put in jail for having sang:
“Oh Mother of God, chase Putin away.” A medieval witch trial!
[Gazeta Wyborcza] According to official opinion polls, one-quarter
of Russians are appalled.
[Kasparov] Television manipulates things, but people can sense that
something is not right. Two years of labor camp? For what? What if
they had danced naked but asked God to protect Putin? Would anyone
have taken them to court then?
[Gazeta Wyborcza] What you proposing for Russia is a liberal democracy
and joining the EU. But here the EU is in crisis, capitalism is in
crisis. You are urging your country to try to catch up to a train,
but that train has just jumped its tracks.
[Kasparov] It is not democracy and capitalism that are experiencing
a crisis. The West is experiencing a crisis because it abandoned the
values of the free market and liberal democracy. Adam Smith is turning
in his grave. The original concept of credit, for instance, presumes
that you take money in order to generate new value, not to be able
to consume more. Printing money will also not help anything. Instead
of space engineers, we have financial engineers. Societies no longer
like risk; we are lazy. Where are our inventions, innovations? The
Boeing 747 and Concorde were introduced back in 1969. Since that time
we have moved backward, because the Concorde is no longer flying. For
135 years now we have been living in the combustion-engine era.
America and Europe are not faring very well, but they are still doing
better than anyone else. Progress in China is merely imitative. I
believe that the world needs to enter a new era, including Russia. I
will soon turn 50, but I believe that we are a step away from a
new adventure.
[Gazeta Wyborcza] Nebozhytel is the word used in Russia for people
whom everyone admires and dotes on. They live seemingly in the sky.
[Kasparov] I am walking solidly on the ground. I fly in airplanes a
lot, but somehow I still always want to come back down to earth.
[Gazeta Wyborcza] Do you have a difficult life?
[Kasparov] One full of challenges.
[Gazeta Wyborcza] In other words you are not a nebozhytel?
[Kasparov] I have views. And I am not timid. I defend what I believe
in. That is why not everyone is fond of me. When we finish with Putin,
I will move on to something else. Something more complicated.
[Translated from Polish]
From: Baghdasarian